shminux comments on The Need for Universal Experience Classes - Less Wrong
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Comments (67)
Your post comes across as a rambling high-school essay, rather than coherent thoughts of a "science researcher", which might be a part of the reason for people downvoting it. Maybe work on your presentation skills.
What is that "everyday thinking"? Without proper guidance, or even with it, we are prone to the multitude of cognitive biases, and these biases tend to stick, not self-correct. Hence this site.
Feel free to elaborate on how their thinking evolved over this time and contrast it with the standard approach.
Perhaps because I am a high school student? I work in a lab in my free time :) This wasn't supposed to be an essay, though. I probably wasn't clear enough, but I was just trying to raise points for discussion. |-| My point is that most people don't even try to think deeply about anything. This is especially true of my peers in school. If you guys don't like my method, what do you suggest to do? It's not that easy to convince average (lazy!) teens to try to think, in any sense of the word. Even if I told them to read this site, they wouldn't have the passion to do it (because classes don't involve thinking per se as much as memorizing, so to them it would be useless), and if they were somehow forced to read Lesswrong, they might not try to remember the concepts and apply them in outside cases.
You're going to rapidly leave your peers far behind. I wouldn't put too much effort into getting them to think deeply about the world. I agree critical thinking skills should emphasized more in high school but in general the problem with secondary education in the United States is not one of insufficient appreciation of the arts.
To generalize from my own experience, most people with graduate level education don't have the passion to really learn how to think.
We are the weirdest of the weirdos in this respect. A mental model that neglects this fact will be punished by reality.
What exactly do you mean by graduate level education? In other words,have the people that completed great Ph.D. projects never thought during that time period? Or is the problem that they don't really apply thinking outside their field (which I think is more plausible)?
Hold off on proposing solutions during the first stages of discussion.
I disagree.
--George Orwell, 1984
Kid in The Wire when asked how he could keep count of how many vials of crack were left in the stash but couldn't solve the word problem in his math homework.
Fantastic! In that case, The Simple Truth is n words longer than necessary, where n is the number of words in it minus seven.
This is fictional evidence--are there real examples of otherwise unintelligent people being able to perform intricate calculations in specific domains? Most of the people I know who play the lottery don't think about the probabilities involved, which is probably why they're playing the lottery in the first place.
As a college student, I second shend's statement that high schoolers are lazy. It's one thing to engage students who are interested in their studies and enjoy thinking, but engaging the average high school student is much harder.
I do not know if this is strong enough evidence for you, but I offer the following text dump for consideration; from "The Predictive Value of IQ":
Also somewhat relevant http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/190222/1077302733/name/Kwon is a brain imaging study of Korean Go players; the expert professional Go players averaged IQ of 93, the control group 101.
From the Go paper:
So, they got (? or chose the profession because they were?) good at a number of specific tasks that are components of IQ, but they aren't good at IQ measuring tasks overall.
This Go paper is one of the things I point to as evidence that while strategy games may benefit you cognitively early on, there are diminishing returns and they probably set in well before expert skill levels.
Do you think most high schoolers are more lazy than most college students? If so, is this because people actually develop more of a work ethic by college, or because lazy people never even make it that far?
I think most people are probably lazy, if by "lazy" we mean reluctant to consider ideas outside their comfort zone or seek knowledge for its own sake. But I haven't seen any reason to believe that laziness is more prevalent in high school than in the general population.
It probably is more prevalent in high school than college, just because the college application process, especially to selective schools, strongly selects against laziness.
I don't have nearly enough evidence to have high confidence in this conclusion, but I think high schoolers are intellectually lazier simply because of the selection effect of the college application process. I have noticed (warning: anecdotal evidence!) that college students (myself included) tend to procrastinate a lot more, but that may only be because they have increased freedom to do so.
And you might be right--I don't think it's an easy task to convince the general population to think, either. (Plus, "general population" includes people who don't have a high school education.)
I can't speak to their intelligence, but if you hang out with sports nerds for long enough you will encounter one with an encyclopediac grasp of it, play by play recall of numerous matches, nigh on eideitic recall of statistics, and sophisticated ability to relate and manipulate said statistics. Intellectual curiosity and intelligence may be linked but it's not a necessary link.
I third it, I just don't think that's much of a barrier to getting them to think.
Can you elaborate on this? As far as I can tell, laziness is definitely a barrier to thinking about thinking. For example, if I wanted to teach a group of students about a cognitive bias, they would have to do some reading about it or at the very least listen to a presentation or lecture. But a great deal of students simply don't want to put forward the effort to read a passage or listen to a lecture, and would rather just sit there and stare at their desks.
(This is not idle speculation--in early 2010, when I was in high school, I read Cognitive Biases Potentially Affecting Judgment of Global Risks and was so amazed by the material that I taught a ten-minute lecture on it to a 12th grade history class and three 9th grade biology classes as an extra-credit project. When I talked to people afterward to get feedback, what shocked me the most was how many people were only idly listening and not thinking about what they heard.)
I'm thinking that there is probably a way to get them to gamble and lose money (grades?) for employing a bad heuristc (best), or having those who think most clearly make the most money.