lessdazed comments on How Likely Is Cryonics To Work? - Less Wrong

18 Post author: jkaufman 25 September 2011 11:38PM

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Comment author: lessdazed 26 September 2011 12:03:47AM *  1 point [-]

Too high:

You mess up the paperwork, either for cryonics or life insurance

Some law is passed that prohibits cryonics (before you're even dead)

Not all of what makes you you is encoded in the physical state of the brain

All people die (nuclear war? comet strike? nanotech?)

The technology is never developed to extract the information

It is too expensive to extract my brain's information

Running people in simulation is outlawed

It is too expensive to run me in simulation (if we get this far I expect cheap powerful computers)

Far too low:

You die suddenly or in a circumstance where you would not be able to be frozen in time (see leading causes of death)

Society falls apart (remember this is the chance that society will fall apart given that we did not see "all people die")

About right:

Odds of success: 1 in 567.

Comment author: khafra 26 September 2011 12:52:37PM 0 points [-]

Too high:

You mess up the paperwork, either for cryonics or life insurance

What if we add in "your ugh field around immediate paperwork is bigger than the one around distant death"? Speaking from an empirical sample of one, .03 is far too low in that case.

Comment author: lessdazed 26 September 2011 01:21:24PM 2 points [-]

OK, I thought from how it was spoken about that the category was for an unknown error causing a problem after the fact.

If it's for the ugh field, it's too low, if it's for an undiscovered error causing problems, it's too high.

Comment author: jkaufman 26 September 2011 01:16:26AM 0 points [-]

Do you have better numbers? Ideally with reasons why you think mine are too low or too high?

Comment author: lessdazed 26 September 2011 01:52:34AM *  1 point [-]

Paperwork

Other people have done it. You fill in blanks. It just seems too high.

Some law is passed that prohibits cryonics (before you're even dead)

It would be difficult to block someone with such a law because one could always be transported. Will Federal laws be passed in the US, and Canada? Probably not. US, Canada, and Anguilla? No chance.

Not all of what makes you you is encoded in the physical state of the brain

What are the other options? Sure, if I had a wound to my stomach I might "feel anxiety" differently, or something.

All people die (nuclear war? comet strike? nanotech?)

Nuclear war would not kill everyone. Comet strike defenses are getting better and the risk is low. Nanotech...factory produced things will be more efficient than self-replicators, I do not expect self-replicators to be where investment is put. It is easier to break things than fix them, self replicators are breaking things not too hard to break, as they are practically alive.

Humans with no technology survived the ice age. Someone's surviving whatever we do in a bomb shelter with a million cans of tuna, or on Tasmania, or something.

The technology is never developed to extract the information

Take thin slices, print it. Conceptually it's not hard, even if technologically impossible. It doesn't seem outlandish or as a thing in kind that must be invented, like nanotechnology is.

It is too expensive to extract my brain's information

Things get cheap.

Running people in simulation is outlawed

Weirdly specific, but you could be revived as well.

It is too expensive to run me in simulation (if we get this far I expect cheap powerful computers)

Just go slower, and run on a Pentium III at one second per decade or whatever.

Far too low:

You die suddenly or in a circumstance where you would not be able to be frozen in time (see leading causes of death)

I didn't look at actuarial tables, but head trauma is not a good thing, more than time is involved.

Society falls apart (remember this is the chance that society will fall apart given that we did not see "all people die")

Much probability mass taken from "All people die" (you had it at .3, I have it about .01), but still more than your .2+.3. More like .8. Societies fail. They just do. That's what they do. If the society isn't basically stable, it will change until it eventually dies. The society will have institutions poorly designed for past circumstances (as overreactions to even older circumstances) persist and be less and less appropriate. The society will consume resources until they are gone. The society will have cooperative morals decay and become a mass of individuals. Societies...for these things death is natural more than it is for humans.

Comment author: jimrandomh 26 September 2011 02:16:34AM 3 points [-]

Societies fail. They just do. That's what they do.

Not anymore. Societies fall, but they fall a fixed distance before they restructure and recover, and they start a little higher every year.

Comment author: lessdazed 26 September 2011 02:31:19AM 1 point [-]

I look at the failed states index and it makes me pessimistic.

Comment author: novalis 26 September 2011 03:34:51AM 1 point [-]

If you really want to get pessimistic, read Collapse, by Jared Diamond. It shows how a complex, apparently functioning society can totally fall apart in way less time than you might expect.

Comment author: jkaufman 26 September 2011 11:13:20AM 1 point [-]

I read that book a while ago. My memory is that the societies he examined were in very fragile environments, much more fragile than most places people are.

Comment author: novalis 26 September 2011 04:52:30PM 2 points [-]

He argues that how fragile an environment is, depends on the demands placed on it by it inhabitants. The Mayan Yucatan, Haiti, and Rwanda were not particularly fragile, but every place has a limit.

Comment author: jkaufman 26 September 2011 05:45:43PM 1 point [-]

You're right; I was just remembering the easter island and greenland bits.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 26 September 2011 02:38:30AM 0 points [-]

Many of those failed states are states which have been failed for quite a long time. It is extremely rare for a state to be in good shape and then get to very bad shape.

Comment author: lessdazed 26 September 2011 03:23:36AM *  1 point [-]

It's not the ones at the bottom I'm concerned with.

Many of the ones rated "Moderate" don't seem stable for our purposes here, which are slightly different than the list's compilers'. We want to see countries that are unlikely to have a sufficiently bad shock over the next century and a half or so, the index is concerned with related but different things including refugees and factionalization of elites.

A good example of what I'm talking about is Kuwait. As far as I can tell it deserves its place in the same category as the United States, near the bottom of it with the US near the top. But its geographical position makes it extremely unreliable as a possibly stable place for the next few centuries.