lessdazed comments on Stanislav Petrov Day - Less Wrong

35 Post author: gwern 26 September 2011 02:49PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Article Navigation

Comments (164)

Tags: morality

Comments (164)

Sort By: Best

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: lessdazed 28 September 2011 02:55:56AM * 6 points [-]

When it comes to damaging the environment, bet on destructive systems to do more harm than countable events.

This includes invasive species, urban sprawl, and overfishing in one group and volcanoes, tidal waves, nuclear tests and oil spills in the other. I think it's more important than the natural/man-made dichotomy that is the way I am instinctively inclined to think of these things.

Comment author: wedrifid comment score below threshold [+] (14 children)

Comment author: TobyBartels 28 September 2011 05:06:21PM 2 points [-]

I don't know what it means for something to be good for an environment in the absence of people living in that environment.

Perhaps you mean that wild animals (say mammals) would be better off. Many domesticated animals arguably have lives not worth living so would be better off. However, many partially domesticated animals would be worse off; think of the rats in New York City, for example.

Comment author: wedrifid 28 September 2011 05:15:14PM -1 points [-]

I don't know what it means for something to be good for an environment in the absence of people living in that environment.

Why ever not? It means the same thing as it does when humans are there. Good for the environment isn't conventionally defined purely by what is seen by the local humans.

Perhaps you mean that wild animals (say mammals) would be better off.

No. I mean the environment.

Comment author: TobyBartels 28 September 2011 08:31:51PM * 1 point [-]

I don't know what it means for something to be good for an environment in the absence of people living in that environment.

Why ever not? It means the same thing as it does when humans are there. Good for the environment isn't conventionally defined purely by what is seen by the local humans.

It isn't??? An environment is something that surrounds something else. Many environmentalists are so precisely for the benefits that a good environment gives to humans, although others also care about other animals (and even plants, although I don't really know what it means for something to be good for plants in themselves other than just helping them to grow). I'm not trying to be cute here, I really don't understand what you mean!

Perhaps you mean that wild animals (say mammals) would be better off.

No. I mean the environment.

That links helps a bit; it suggests that you mean that nature would be better off without humans, which is along the lines of what I was thinking. (I focussed on mammals simply because it's most clear to me what it means for something to be good for them in themselves.) However, it doesn't really explain how we know what's good for the natural environment. Please tell me what you mean!

Possibly you mean these items in bullet points. In my opinion, these things are good only because they are good for humans or (at least some) other animals. Obviously, your values may differ. If you mean, for example, that high biodiversity is good in its own right (or at least good for some reason not dependent on humans), then that's fine; please confirm or say instead what you do mean.

Comment author: lessdazed 28 September 2011 09:02:25PM * 3 points [-]

Many environmentalists are so precisely for the benefits that a good environment gives to humans

In my experience this tends to be a fake justification, though it is sometimes true.

Comment author: dlthomas 28 September 2011 09:37:41PM 1 point [-]

I'm an environmentalist because I don't want mercury poisoning from my sushi...

Comment author: JoshuaZ 28 September 2011 09:40:11PM * 7 points [-]

Assuming minimal to no regulation what do you estimate would be the probability of getting mercury poisoning from your sushi?

Comment author: PhilGoetz 28 September 2011 10:35:13PM * 6 points [-]

The probability that there is many times more mercury in your sushi than there would have been 100 years ago, is 1.0 unless that sushi came from a fish farm. Whether it's enough to call it "poisoning" is open to debate. The EPA and FDA recommend you do not eat swordfish, shark, or king mackerel, ever, because of mercury.

We've already seen minimal to no regulation, in the 1970s. WRT mercury contamination of freshwater fish it was very bad. Perhaps some of you are too young to remember when American scientists used to debate whether the recommendation to eat fish no more than once a week was conservative enough or not. Fishermen in many areas are still advised not to each the fish they catch.

It's a bit of a moot point, since without regulation, the major freshwater and saltwater fish stocks would have crashed by now anyway. This doesn't always have to be government regulation. Maine lobstermen have regulated themselves for many years - not just outside the government, but illegally (because the punishments they imposed on violators were illegal).

Harvesting of freshwater fish in the US is, so I hear, switching over to fish farming. Not so much because of poison, but because there just aren't enough wild fish.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 29 September 2011 02:16:06AM 0 points [-]

Upvoted. This makes dlthomas's statement seem very reasonable.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 29 September 2011 03:54:07AM * 1 point [-]

That links helps a bit; it suggests that you mean that nature would be better off without humans, which is along the lines of what I was thinking.

If you unpack what most people mean by good for the environment, they mean how the environment would be if humans weren't around, or more particularly, if humans never developed reason.

Both of the bullet points in the wiki summary for Natural Environment explicity exclude effects of human activity - "without massive human intervention" and "not originating from human activity."

Comment author: wedrifid 28 September 2011 08:54:23PM -1 points [-]

If you mean, say, that high biodiversity is good in its own right (or at least good for some reason not dependent on humans), then that's fine; please confirm or say instead what you do mean.

High biodiversity is a necessary but not sufficient component of what it means for 'the environment' to be in a state labeled commonly referred to as 'good'. Other requirements are that it maintains many or most of those things which are aesthetically or ideologically pleasing and that these things for most part exist in relatively stable equilibrium. Note that 'aesthetically pleasing' does not constitute a reference to local human preferences but rather refers to another fuzzy concept that has its own inherent meaning.

Concepts like "good for the environment" represent a lot of information but given that most people within the same subculture will understand what you mean when you use them they serve their intended purpose well.

Obviously, your values may differ.

Yes. And my philosophy of knowledge.

Comment author: TobyBartels 29 September 2011 08:20:14AM 4 points [-]

H'm, now it sounds like by "good for the environment" you didn't necessarily mean anything that you would consider good for anything at all, but just what a fairly unreflective person off of the street would mean by "good for the environment" in that context. In that case, I agree that the absence of humanity would be "good for the environment", although I don't particularly care what's "good for the environment", which is merely an instrumental value that would largely no longer apply. (That's just me, however.)

So thanks for explaining!

Comment author: wedrifid 29 September 2011 05:28:32PM 0 points [-]

H'm, now it sounds like by "good for the environment" you didn't necessarily mean anything that you would consider good for anything at all, but just what a fairly unreflective person off of the street would mean by "good for the environment"

I cannot accept that as representative of my position.

Comment author: TobyBartels 03 October 2011 03:24:44AM 1 point [-]

You don't seem to be very interested in explaining your position, so I'll just drop it now.

lessdazed comments on Stanislav Petrov Day - Less Wrong

Article Navigation

Comments (164)

Nearest Meetups

Virtual Study Room

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

Recent Rationality Quotes

Recent Wiki Edits

Top Contributors, 30 Days

Recent Karma Awards

Comments (164)

Top Contributors, 30 Days

You'll need to login or register to do that

(Don't worry, it only takes a few seconds)

Create

Login