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TobyBartels comments on Stanislav Petrov Day - Less Wrong
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It isn't??? An environment is something that surrounds something else. Many environmentalists are so precisely for the benefits that a good environment gives to humans, although others also care about other animals (and even plants, although I don't really know what it means for something to be good for plants in themselves other than just helping them to grow). I'm not trying to be cute here, I really don't understand what you mean!
That links helps a bit; it suggests that you mean that nature would be better off without humans, which is along the lines of what I was thinking. (I focussed on mammals simply because it's most clear to me what it means for something to be good for them in themselves.) However, it doesn't really explain how we know what's good for the natural environment. Please tell me what you mean!
Possibly you mean these items in bullet points. In my opinion, these things are good only because they are good for humans or (at least some) other animals. Obviously, your values may differ. If you mean, for example, that high biodiversity is good in its own right (or at least good for some reason not dependent on humans), then that's fine; please confirm or say instead what you do mean.
In my experience this tends to be a fake justification, though it is sometimes true.
I'm an environmentalist because I don't want mercury poisoning from my sushi...
Assuming minimal to no regulation what do you estimate would be the probability of getting mercury poisoning from your sushi?
The probability that there is many times more mercury in your sushi than there would have been 100 years ago, is 1.0 unless that sushi came from a fish farm. Whether it's enough to call it "poisoning" is open to debate. The EPA and FDA recommend you do not eat swordfish, shark, or king mackerel, ever, because of mercury.
We've already seen minimal to no regulation, in the 1970s. WRT mercury contamination of freshwater fish it was very bad. Perhaps some of you are too young to remember when American scientists used to debate whether the recommendation to eat fish no more than once a week was conservative enough or not. Fishermen in many areas are still advised not to each the fish they catch.
It's a bit of a moot point, since without regulation, the major freshwater and saltwater fish stocks would have crashed by now anyway. This doesn't always have to be government regulation. Maine lobstermen have regulated themselves for many years - not just outside the government, but illegally (because the punishments they imposed on violators were illegal).
Harvesting of freshwater fish in the US is, so I hear, switching over to fish farming. Not so much because of poison, but because there just aren't enough wild fish.
Upvoted. This makes dlthomas's statement seem very reasonable.
If you unpack what most people mean by good for the environment, they mean how the environment would be if humans weren't around, or more particularly, if humans never developed reason.
Both of the bullet points in the wiki summary for Natural Environment explicity exclude effects of human activity - "without massive human intervention" and "not originating from human activity."
High biodiversity is a necessary but not sufficient component of what it means for 'the environment' to be in a state labeled commonly referred to as 'good'. Other requirements are that it maintains many or most of those things which are aesthetically or ideologically pleasing and that these things for most part exist in relatively stable equilibrium. Note that 'aesthetically pleasing' does not constitute a reference to local human preferences but rather refers to another fuzzy concept that has its own inherent meaning.
Concepts like "good for the environment" represent a lot of information but given that most people within the same subculture will understand what you mean when you use them they serve their intended purpose well.
Yes. And my philosophy of knowledge.
H'm, now it sounds like by "good for the environment" you didn't necessarily mean anything that you would consider good for anything at all, but just what a fairly unreflective person off of the street would mean by "good for the environment" in that context. In that case, I agree that the absence of humanity would be "good for the environment", although I don't particularly care what's "good for the environment", which is merely an instrumental value that would largely no longer apply. (That's just me, however.)
So thanks for explaining!
I cannot accept that as representative of my position.
You don't seem to be very interested in explaining your position, so I'll just drop it now.