JoshuaZ comments on Edward Nelson claims proof of inconsistency in Peano Arithmetic - Less Wrong
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My understanding is that Nelson doesn't necessarily believe in exponentiation either although his work here doesn't have the direct potential to wreck that.
The real issue isn't PA as much as the fact that there are a very large number of theorems that we use regularly that live in axiomatic systems that model PA in a nearly trivial fashion. For example, ZFC minus replacement, choice and foundation. Even much weaker systems where one replaces the power set axiom with some weaker axiom allows you to construct PA. For example if you replace the power set axiom with the claim that for any two sets A and B their cartesian product always exists. Even this is much stronger than you need. Similarly, you can massively reduce the allowed types of input sets and predicates in the axiom schema of specification and still have a lot more than you need. You can for example restrict the allowed predicate sets to at most three quantifiers and still be ok (this may be restrictable to even just two quantifiers but I haven't worked out the details).
And what Nelson's proof (if valid) breaks is weaker than PA which means that if anything the situation is worse.
It may be for example that any axiomatic system which lets us talk about both the real numbers and the integers allows Nelson's problem. Say one for example one has an axiomatic system which includes Nelson's extreme finitary version of the natural numbers, include the very minimal amount of set theory necessary to talk about sets, include second order reals, and an axiom embedding your "natural numbers" into the reals. Can you do this without getting all sorts of extra stuff thrown in? I don't know and this looks like an interesting question from a foundational perspective. It may depend a lot on which little bits of set theory you allow. But, I'm going to guess that the answer is no. I'll need to think about this a bit more to make the claim more precise.
I know this isn't the main point of your comment but I got carried away looking this stuff up.
In his 1986 book, he defines a predicate exp(x,k,f) which basically means "f is a function defined for i < k and f(i) = x^i". And he defines another predicate epsilon(k) which is "for all x there exists f such that exp(x,k,f)". I think you can give a proof of epsilon(k) in his regime in O(log log k) steps. In standard arithmetic that takes O(1) steps using induction, but O(log log k) is pretty cheap too if you're not going to iterate exponentiation. So that's a sense in which Nelson does believe in exponentiation.
On the other hand I think it's accurate to say that Nelson doesn't believe that exponentiation is total, i.e. that for all n, epsilon(n). Here's an extract from Nelson's "Predicative Arithmetic" (Princeton U Press 1986). Chapter heading: "Is exponentiation total?"
This argument applies just as well to addition and multiplication.
See Nelsons paper where he talks about the qualitative difference between types of recursion.
I think I can explain that. Nelson doesn't believe in any kind of Platonic number, but he does believe in formal number systems and that they can sometimes accurately describe the world. We have essentially two number systems: the tally-mark system (e.g. SSSSS0 and so on), and the positional system (e.g. 2011 and so on). Both of these are successful at modeling aspects of the world.
Most people regard these two number systems as equivalent in some sense. Specifically, there is a procedure for rewriting a positional number as a tally number, and most people believe that this procedure terminates "at least in principle." (For instance, one can formally prove this in PA using the induction axiom). But Nelson denies it. He believes that the positional number system and the tally number system are different, and that the positional number system is strictly stronger. I think your remark --
-- applies to the tally system, but not to the positional system. But Nelson does not believe that the positional system is inconsistent. So he is happy to adjoin axioms to the tally system that allow for working with addition and multiplication.
My knowledge of complexity theory is very limited, but I thought exponentiation could be done in polynomial time. Is that incorrect, or am I misunderstanding Nelson's argument (please don't tell me he also doubts complexity theory, we must be allowed some fun :P).
EDIT: Yes, I was wrong, the claim of polynomial time in the length of b may well be too strong, but it does seem to use less than 2^b. I think I can use the position system to compute 2^b in O(b^2) steps, which seems to lead us straight from accepting multiplication to accepting exponentiation.
I think so, in positional notation. That's what I was alluding to with my O(log log k) comment. But there is no polynomial time algorithm to reduce 2^n to a tally number (obviously).
I once read something by Nelson about the polynomial hierarchy in complexity theory, but I can't find it now.