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Document comments on Rationality Quotes October 2011 - Less Wrong
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J. K. Rowling
Edit: Wasn't expecting downvotes. Maybe the distinction between the attributions is obvious, but I still don't see it.
Edit 2: Downvotes explained; thanks.
It is perhaps not obvious that you are ironically committing a sin in order to point out someone else's unironic sin, rather than just unironically sinning yourself.
I am also not a downvoter (I generally try not to) but I think it's likely due to the hostile, aggressive tone, and the lack of implied values, as NancyLebovitz touched on.
I also might suggest that Rowling probably didn't mean that, since it was said by, ya know, Voldemort. Some may have downvoted because it implied Rowling agreed with it.
I'm not one of the downvoters, but I'd say the quote isn't rationalist because it leaves out what one might be seeking power for. And it makes a wild guess about why everyone isn't in line with the speaker's favorite value.
I'd also say that it's important to think about where cooperation fits into trying to get anything done.
The point is that J. K. Rowling didn't say it.
There's more than one point. One is that it assuredly isn't Rowling's point of view, and another is that regardless of who said it, it isn't a rationalist statement.
I recommend that we have a convention of not just attributing quotes to their authors, but at least mentioning if a quote is the words of a fictional character. Ideally, there would be a link or some mention of context.
Yes, I'm very confused. I knew it was Voldemort who said that, but could you perhaps explain your point? I'm unfamiliar with the original quote; were you trying to point out that Scott Aaronson didn't mean what was attributed to him anymore than Rowling meant what you attributed to her?
Also, when I first read the quote my brain inferred that Scott Aaronson had provoked some kind of blog drama kerfuffle and been forced into a backpedaling, self-justifying apology; which lowered its opinion of him.
Even if he meant it (and it's unclear what that would mean in context), the minimum standard for attributing a quotation to someone should be that they said it themselves.
I disagree, I attribute a number of qutoes in my quotesfile to Eliezer, even though they were actually "said" by Harry, in HPMOR. I feel like it's a far more honest attribution, provided you are able to ascertain which characters are actually the voice of the author, which for the vast majority of literature, is quite obvious.
This sounds like illusion of transparency to me. I've never written a character whose arbitrary lines I'd like quoted as though I'd said them sans fictional mouthpiece.
See my other comment.
That's an interesting example when EY has complained himself about people attributing views to him based on the story, and even put disclaimers on chapters 1 and 22 to try to stop it.
I don't see how it's more honest. Are people going to infer that Scott doesn't hold any position that isn't attributed to him?
I've noticed the disclaimers, but I feel fairly confident (p > 0.95) that none of the quotes (They're all said by Harry) he would mind being attributed to him. If the consensus is that I shouldn't attribute these quotes to him, or if he himself actually says so, I will certainly change them:
• “When you put on the robes of a scientist you must forget all your politics and arguments and factions and sides, silence the desperate clingings of your mind, and wish only to hear the answer of Nature.” – Eliezer Yudkowsky, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
• “There is no justice in the laws of nature, … no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky. But they don't have to. We care. There is light in the world, and it is us.” - Eliezer Yudkowsky, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
• “So I won't ask you to say that [it] was wrong … just say that it was… sad. We won't talk about whether or not it was necessary, whether it was justified. I'll just ask you to say that it was sad that it happened. … If we start out by saying that every life is precious, that it's sad when anyone dies, then I know we'll meet someday.” – Eliezer Yudkowsky, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
• “I see little hope for democracy as an effective form of government, but I admire the poetry of how it makes its victims complicit in their own destruction.” – Eliezer Yudkowsky, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
• “Tell me something. What does a government have to do, what do the voters have to do with their democracy, what do the people of a country have to do, before I ought to decide that I'm not on their side any more?” – Eliezer Yudkowsky, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
And I see it as more honest because the "character" doesn't exist. He isn't saying it, because he doesn't actually exist. If the author is speaking through the character (and you shouldn't quote the character, otherwise) then he or she is ultimately the speaker.
Ironically, I do have some quotes in my file attributed to characters, usually because they are from movies or TV shows with multiple writers, that you can't have a reasonable attribution to a single writer to.
Why not use "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, by Eliezer Yudkowsky", rather than "Eliezer Yudkowsky, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"? My intuition is that putting the title of the work of fiction first makes it more clear that you're citing the author's words rather than necessarily the author's own opinions.
That's an excellent idea, I'll change my attributions when I get a chance.
The first two quotes seem like things that Eliezer would actually agree with. But I'm substantially less convinced about the others.
I feel very confident about the first three. Less so about the last two, but I still feel like he generally would agree with them. If that's not the general consensus though, (Judging by the downvotes, it isn't) I'll change the attributions.
This raises an interesting question though: when is it appropriate to attribute it to the author? The most obvious example I can think of would be John Galt's speech in Atlas Shrugged - surely it's reasonable to attribute that to Rand: it's practically a nonfiction essay slapped in the middle of a book. Less ambiguous though: what about the words of a narrator? (I have a quote by Virginia Woolfe that was said by the narrator) Should that be attributed to the author? What if the narrator is a character in the story (Camus, The Plague, another one of my quotes)?
Nope.
Which isn't? Am I misremembering?
The fourth is said by Quirrell, now that I think about it, isn't it.