GabrielDuquette comments on Things you are supposed to like - Less Wrong

68 Post author: PhilGoetz 22 October 2011 02:04AM

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Comment author: grouchymusicologist 21 October 2011 04:47:23AM *  66 points [-]

A handful of points, without any particular axe to grind, from a professional music scholar:

(1) The Great Fugue is difficult to like, difficult to know what to make of -- even most of its passionate advocates would agree to that -- and there's no particular reason to think that opinions from wildly positive to wildly negative are not all within the realm of the reasonable responses to this piece. A huge amount of scholarly ink has been spilled on why it, and the late string quartets, and the Missa Solemnis, are so peculiar.

(2) Relatedly, people who love it and think that it's obviously, uncomplicatedly lovable may well be putting on airs or signaling. And as with any piece of music that has gigantic prestige built up around it (partly due to its reputation for being super-profound and inscrutable), all opinions are probably to be somewhat taken with some suspicion of signaling behavior.

(3) Think of someone who has repeatedly shown herself to be a brilliant, extremely sound thinker. You come to trust her opinions on a wide range of topics. When she says something you find absolutely bizarre or inscrutable, you're going to at a very minimum think carefully about what she says to see if the fault is with you. If you're a fan of most of the music Beethoven writes, I encourage you to give him a similar benefit of the doubt.

(4) I myself find the Great Fugue remarkable but not at all pleasant -- in fact, while Beethoven holds me enraptured right up through the Last Five Sonatas and the Ninth Symphony, he loses me a bit with the Missa Solemnis and the late string quartets, with the exception of a few isolated movements. You're certainly not wrong to suggest that admitting these views in academic music circles is low-prestige (although not as much so as it used to be), but a major factor in this is my point (3) above: Beethoven has generally earned the benefit of the doubt. Also, it's equally low-prestige in those circles to run around gushing about how amazing the Great Fugue is without having some interesting things to say about why you think so.

(5) I am totally baffled why you are so convinced that quality must be something that inheres to a piece of music. Quality is subjective, or at most inter-subjective, and aesthetic judgments do not contain truth value.

(6) Whatever you think you mean by suggesting that the music of Alban Berg (not sure why you picked him) lacks "basic music theory," I can completely guarantee you that you are wrong. Music theory is not a property of musical compositions any more than linguistics is a property of language. If what you mean is that Alban Berg was not a composer of tonal music in the 18th- and 19th-century sense, then that is true, but (a) his music contains structure, just not tonal structure; (b) the relativism of aesthetic judgments means that that is neither a bad thing nor a good thing except insofar as the pleasure some people take in his music is good; and (c) if you are hinting at the claim that people who say they like Alban Berg's music don't actually like it but are just signaling social prestige, then that may be true for some individuals but is false in the general sense.

(7) Liking has a great deal more to do with familiarity than you think it does, and substantial music cognition research backs this up.

(8) It is probably impossible to separate individual aesthetic pleasure from socially-pressured aesthetic pleasure as thoroughly as you want to. (I'm reminded of the famous Judgment of Paris wine-tasting episode (link is to Wikipedia, tinyurl is the only way I could get it not to be broken).) We are social beings, so we should release ourselves from the imagined obligation to make all our aesthetic judgments in a social vacuum. Even the pleasure you take from the things you think you like in the most genuine and uncomplicated way is to some degree socially determined. Liking things is something that we're in many ways primed to do by what we hear from others -- if my best friend recommends me a novel, I'll read it with somewhat more patience knowing that someone whose opinion I value has vouched for it. If in the end I like it, even if I wouldn't have liked it otherwise, there's no reason to think of that liking as being less genuine or less valuable.

(7+8) If you listen to the Great Fugue a hundred more times, unless you find something viscerally unpleasant about it (which, make no mistake, some people really do, since it's pretty loud and screechy), you will probably like it, because familiarity and social conditioning tend to do that to us. If you like it, stop driving yourself crazy and just like it. If you can't stand to like something thinking that there's some element of social conditioning driving you to do so, then by all means stop listening to the Great Fugue.

(9) That said, many people do find that it's interesting or pleasant to expend a little effort to see if they can learn to like something that they don't immediately like but have some reason to think they may like eventually. That's what an acquired taste is. If you give it a shot and it doesn't take, then let yourself off the hook. And you can always take some pleasure in being the aggressive countersignaller who goes around telling anyone who'll listen that the Great Fugue is totally overrated (some people will take a lot more pleasure in that than they ever could in the piece itself (the politest, but by no means only, word for those people is "contrarians")).

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2011 05:58:48AM *  16 points [-]

aesthetic judgments do not contain truth value.

I think it's more a case of us not being good enough at them yet. An aesthetic experience isn't going to affect everyone in the same way, but neither is aspirin. We can still count on reliable clusterings of similar reactions and go from there.

Comment author: Grognor 21 October 2011 09:09:56PM *  2 points [-]

I agree with your last sentence but not your first. Aesthetics is pretty reliable among humans, but what about in minds-in-general?

After all, dung beetles probably consider dung to be pleasing at some level. The beauty of dung, art, a piece of music, etc., is not "true" or "false".

Comment author: Tiiba 22 October 2011 03:09:56AM 6 points [-]

"Aesthetics is pretty reliable among humans, but what about in minds-in-general"

I don't think that's relevant. A fugue's job description doesn't include entertaining killer robots from outer space, it's supposed to entertain humans.

In general, I think any artwork should be judged (not enjoyed, but judged) based on whether the author succeeded or failed at what [s]he, personally set out to do, and whether it was a hard thing to do - whether it is creating music that is different from all other music in every way imaginable while remaining musical, or writing a novel that avoids all unrealism, or just figuring out what makes museums accept works for which "garbage" is a description, not an insult. Basically, the same way you'd judge an engineer.

Comment author: orthonormal 22 October 2011 05:42:23PM 3 points [-]

I don't think that's relevant. A fugue's job description doesn't include entertaining killer robots from outer space, it's supposed to entertain humans.

Now I wish there were a classical music piece entitled "Fugue in G for Killer Robots from Outer Space".

Comment author: pedanterrific 22 October 2011 05:52:08PM 6 points [-]

Sort of like this?

Comment author: orthonormal 22 October 2011 10:16:06PM 2 points [-]

I, uh. Wow. I did not expect to like that nearly as much as I did.

Comment author: pedanterrific 23 October 2011 08:04:02PM 2 points [-]

Ah, for future reference: this looks to me like a case of defecting by accident. If you intended insult, of course, feel free to disregard this message.

Comment author: orthonormal 23 October 2011 10:22:15PM *  2 points [-]

I hadn't seen any of Flight of the Conchords before, and was wary of it (for reasons of genre) once I clicked the link, but that was a pretty fun song. Sorry for the illusion of transparency on my part.

Comment author: pedanterrific 23 October 2011 10:30:05PM 3 points [-]

No problem; and thanks for explaining, actually. I was having trouble coming up with a reason why you'd expect it to be bad other than a low opinion of my taste, though I was pretty sure that wasn't the case (for one thing, I don't believe I've commented on music on this site).

Incidentally, you wouldn't believe how long I agonized over a way to bring that implication to your attention without defecting by accident (by seeming accusatory or insulting) myself. This stuff is harder than it seems.

Comment author: gwern 22 October 2011 12:16:58AM 3 points [-]

Aesthetics is pretty reliable among humans, but what about in minds-in-general?

See Schmidhuber (of AIXI etc):

Comment author: [deleted] 22 October 2011 03:24:57PM *  0 points [-]

I'm watching his '09 Singularity Summit talk now. Is there a reason I shouldn't consider it massively important?

Comment author: gwern 22 October 2011 07:56:03PM 3 points [-]

Is there a reason I shouldn't consider it massively important?

It's been a while since I read his writing on this topic, but I remember thinking that it is a cute idea, yet I really wanted experimental backing (which ought to be easy to do) and the generated stuff didn't seem very pretty.

Comment author: Armok_GoB 29 October 2011 08:14:12PM *  2 points [-]

A good general artist should be able to study dung beetles for a while and then construct an optimally pleasing piece if dung. Doing so would be a valid act of artistic expression, and in fact the idea is pretty interesting and novel, so it might give quite a bit of status if done well. If I had more time and access to dung beetles I would give it a go, since that kind of cogsci crossover and provocative thing is right up my alley. I'd not be surprised to see a TED talk about it by some artist who did it either.

Comment author: gwern 29 October 2011 08:17:49PM 8 points [-]

I am surprised no one has brought up http://www.xkcd.com/915/ yet.

(I may one day regret posting this comment, but... when that XKCD was published, I remarked in #lesswrong that it was entirely correct, and pointed to myself: as a result of my years cleaning a dog pen, I had developed distinct aesthetic preferences as far as feces went. They can vary widely in attractiveness based on coloring, water-content, foreign bodies, etc.)

Comment author: [deleted] 21 October 2011 09:28:06PM 0 points [-]

How about just getting more accurate about what actually happens (in terms of interaction between sound waves, light waves, and brain) when we perceive art? Surely we are doing this.