MarkusRamikin comments on Better Disagreement - Less Wrong

70 Post author: lukeprog 24 October 2011 09:13PM

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Comment author: GilPanama 23 October 2011 08:22:55AM *  37 points [-]

DH7 should be kept internal, at least at first. Being misinterpreted as trying to construct a straw man when you've been trying to do the opposite can derail a conversation. To actually believe that you've made a steel man, not a straw man, the person you're arguing with would have to admit that you've created a stronger argument for their own position than they could.

It's probably best to practice up to DH7 internally, and only up to DH6 vocally.

If we imagine arguments as soldiers, as they tend to be, the problem becomes even clearer:

(A and B are about to fight.)

A. Ah! My worthy opponent! I shall send my greatest soldier to crush you... GOLIATH! ATTACK!

B. His sword's a little wimpy. Let me give him a bazooka.

If I were A, I wouldn't trust that bazooka on B's word alone, I'd be annoyed at the slight against my blacksmiths, and, even if it turned out to be a totally legitimate bazooka, I would, at the very least, consider B a tactless grandstander.

(Though if the bazooka did work, I'd use it, obviously. I just wouldn't like using it.)

Comment author: MarkusRamikin 23 October 2011 09:14:37AM *  0 points [-]

The danger you point out is real, but an unqualified dictum such as "DH7 should be kept internal, at least at first" is very specific advice that IMO is going too far. A great deal depends on the quality of the sub-argument to do with strengthening the opponent's position, and the opponent's (and/or audience's, if any) receptiveness to that. You seem to be saying we should always have low confidence in both, while I'd say it depends.

If we imagine arguments as soldiers

Maybe let's not. Applying DH7 already assumes we're interested in truth, not just in winning a debate.

Comment author: GilPanama 23 October 2011 10:04:17AM *  4 points [-]

I don't ALWAYS have low confidence in the other arguer's ability to tolerate a steel man version of their own argument. I do have low confidence in the ability of most people, especially me, to decide what constitutes a non-gratuitous steel man. I have an unfortunate, but understandable, bias in favor of my own creations, and I suspect that this bias is widely shared.