atorm comments on Disability Culture Meets the Transhumanist Condition - Less Wrong

31 Post author: Rubix 28 October 2011 07:02PM

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Comment author: SilasBarta 29 October 2011 04:09:48PM *  11 points [-]

Once again, I bring up the exchange from Gideon's Crossing, where a black doctor advises a deaf woman to give her deaf daughter cochlear implants:

Mother: You're saying that hearing people are better than deaf people!
Doctor: I'm saying it's easier.
Mother: Would your life be easier if you were white?

For those that don't catch the analogy: yes, life might be easier if you were hearing rather than deaf, but gaining the ability to hear would change a fundamental part of your identity and separate you from your "native culture".

Not endorsing this view, just trying to give a better intuition for it.

Comment author: atorm 29 October 2011 06:19:35PM *  12 points [-]

In at least one sense, hearing people ARE better than deaf people. I'm not saying they have more moral worth, I'm saying that, all other things being equal, the hearing person can do things that the deaf person can't. The latest iPhone (to pick a piece of technology with a recognizable progression in quality) is better than the iPhone 3G. It has a faster processor and various other doohickies that improve its function. It's not morally superior, but it IS objectively better, as, as far as I can tell, the ability to hear is objectively better to deafness.

Comment author: Gabriel 29 October 2011 11:10:40PM 7 points [-]

Deaf people can also do things that hearing people can't. They are completely immune to noise and auditory distractions. I can imagine a future in which people pay for getting an implant that grants them voluntary deafness powers. I'd buy it.

Apart from that bit of pedantry, I agree with your comment.

Comment author: Prismattic 31 October 2011 11:02:53PM *  6 points [-]

I can imagine a future in which people pay for getting an implant that grants them voluntary deafness powers. I'd buy it.

Behold The Future!

Comment author: Gabriel 03 November 2011 07:50:40PM 0 points [-]

Earplugs: imperfect, uncomfortable, annoying to "turn on and off" and gross. And, I suppose, that in many social contexts using them could end up causing you to be labeled a passive-agressive weirdo. Headphones are better in some ways and worse in others. I think they provide weaker isolation and require you to actually listen to music if you want to really stop hearing outside stuff but I never had high-end headphones so I don't actually know.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 01 November 2011 02:20:09PM 0 points [-]

I'd pay for earlids, especially if they came with a shut-in-case-of-loud-noise reflex.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 29 October 2011 11:45:45PM 3 points [-]

Deaf people can also do things that hearing people can't. They are completely immune to noise and auditory distractions.

These sound a lot like the rationalizations used to justify why death is a good thing.

Comment author: SilasBarta 30 October 2011 03:27:32PM 4 points [-]

No, it doesn't. It would only sound that way if the claim were that deafness is better on net (as is claimed of mortality), rather than pointing out one particular benefit of being deaf.

(Minor nitpick: people labeled "deaf" can still pick up very low-frequency vibrations, and if they're next to a really wild party, can still get annoyed by the bass. Similarly, people with "no light perception" still get fried by lasers.)

Comment author: Logos01 31 October 2011 06:32:03AM 2 points [-]

These sound a lot like the rationalizations used to justify why death is a good thing.

Actually -- the senses we use to shape our map of the world in a very strong sense alter the ways in which we understand the world. It has long been demonstrated that in patients who lack a specific sense, the neural mass normally dedicated to that sense begins to "bleed over" into the remaining senses, giving them more 'processing power' than would otherwise normally be the case. What this, in turn, means is that the perceptual world of a deaf or blind person is very strongly different from the one that we who have all five senses would otherwise understand or know.

What does all of this imply? The deaf truly perceive the world in ways that we who have all of our senses cannot today comprehend, in any true sense -- though we can extrapolate from considering cases such as color-blindness; I can imagine that to a deaf person I am effectively color-blind to a whole range of visual depth that I can no more know than could a profoundly color-blind person 'know' the reality of red and green being profoundly separate colors.

In restoring hearing to such a person, if we are to truly argue that such a thing would be solely augmentative in nature, we should endeavor to ensure that such depth of perceptual capability was not lost in the process.

As a diagnosed autist, I very often wonder what it would be like to be what many of those of my condition refer to as "neurotypical". But I definitely would never want to live my life as 'one of you'; I am quite proud of the insights and demonstrably variant modes of thinking my condition has granted me.

As a transhumanist, I very often find that the notion of neurodiversity; of having the freedom to define for one's own self what one's cognitive processes should be shaped after, at any given time, is a more realizable near-term goal (morally, if not technically). It bypasses many of these problems.

Comment author: lessdazed 30 October 2011 01:46:18AM 2 points [-]

Every net good policy has some bad consequences. Every net bad policy has some good consequences.

Comment author: atorm 31 October 2011 01:58:26PM -2 points [-]

I don't think that is absolutely true. Consider the following policy followed by Omega: "Whenever life is discovered on a planet, all the life is extinguished and the planet is destroyed." Where are the good consequences of such a policy? This reminds me of "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger," an aphorism meant to make people feel better but not actually based on fact. Ask a polio victim if they're feeling stronger.

Comment author: lessdazed 31 October 2011 04:23:22PM *  2 points [-]

Less pain on that planet. Depending on the extermination method, possibly awesome fireworks.

The badly dehydrated do love getting water, but no one (?) seeks to be badly dehydrated. Those who were dehydrated and say it was wonderful but do not lock themselves away from water frequently are probably expressing sour grapes towards those who never went without water for days. The pleasure of getting the water is still real.

Comment author: [deleted] 02 November 2011 05:38:56AM 1 point [-]

Deafness is not death. If you die, you can't do anything at all, because there isn't a you left to speak of.

If you cannot hear, but you can communicate linguistically, and you did not recently lose hearing in a traumatic fashion, your hedonic set-point incorporates that fact. Acquiring a sense of hearing if you don't have one already is non-trivial and often imperfect; it also does not make it easier to speak in a way others will react to normally (many hearing people listen to the voices of deaf people speaking aloud and subconsciously dehumanize or belittle them since their speech often sounds awkward to someone used to hearing/fluent speakers of their native language). So even then their problems don't go away, and social acceptance is not total.

Not the same thing as rationalizing death.

Comment author: antigonus 29 October 2011 11:15:38PM *  -1 points [-]

They also tend to have better vision than hearing people, I believe.

Comment author: Logos01 31 October 2011 06:34:07AM 1 point [-]

Neurally, this is true; they possess the same amount of gray matter dedicated to processing sensory input but it has fewer signals to work with. We who possess all five senses can do something similar by using sensory-deprivation tools to note the "sharpening" of a particular sense we pay attention to.

In terms of apparatus, however, simply being deaf doesn't suddenly eliminate near-sightedness.

Comment author: [deleted] 02 November 2011 05:32:35AM 0 points [-]

As an autistic person with serious auditory sensitivities, I can see the draw of being able to shut down my sense of hearing voluntarily. If I lost it (I may as I age; there's some family history) I think I'd just prefer to bank against that possibility by learning ASL now, which -- bonus! -- gives me some linguistic access to interacting with people I'd find difficult to talk to before, rather than get a cochlear implant or a hearing aid.

Comment author: ZankerH 29 October 2011 10:58:12PM 3 points [-]

But is the ability to distinguish a discrete and limited number of tones that you have to learn to interpret properly to have any benefit from at all (even more so if the person in question was born deaf) worth an invasive medical procedure?

All things being equal, you are of course correct. If cochlear implants cost €1, could be worn like earbuds and replicated normal human hearing perfectly, this wouldn't be an issue at all. The issue is precisely the fact that all things are not equal.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 30 October 2011 12:21:26AM 3 points [-]

But is the ability to distinguish a discrete and limited number of tones that you have to learn to interpret properly to have any benefit from at all (even more so if the person in question was born deaf) worth an invasive medical procedure?

If the true objection was the invasiveness of the procedure, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

If cochlear implants cost €1, could be worn like earbuds and replicated normal human hearing perfectly, this wouldn't be an issue at all.

And I bet you it would be an issue. There are people out there who force female genital mutilation to their children -- that's an invasive procedure right there that is meant to deprive their children of an ability. And yet millions of people do it to their children.

It's not about the invasiveness of the procedure -- it's about cultures that choose to do evil in pursuit of their self-perpetuation.

Comment author: Logos01 31 October 2011 06:38:22AM -1 points [-]

If cochlear implants cost €1, could be worn like earbuds and replicated normal human hearing perfectly, this wouldn't be an issue at all.

You'd be surprised. Mostly from what I've gathered, they discuss the cost of the acquisition of hearing -- at all -- as compared to their current condition. There are significant differences in how the brain processes sensory input from a profoundly deaf/blind/etc person as compared to a hearing/seeing/etc. Having even 50% hearing restored would 'cost' a deaf person the depth and richness of their other perceptions. It really can be boiled down to a question of net expected utility.

But then there are also those folks that stubbornly identify around the culture dedicated to the absence of a given sense and as such can be seen as something of a 'permanent victim' mentality -- at least, that is my perception.

Comment author: antigonus 29 October 2011 11:14:19PM *  0 points [-]

In at least one sense, hearing people ARE better than deaf people. I'm not saying they have more moral worth, I'm saying that, all other things being equal, the hearing person can do things that the deaf person can't.

You're conflating being better at something with being better. "In at least one sense, white people ARE better than black people. All other things being equal, they can pursue more opportunities with less discrimination." How is that a useful observation?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 30 October 2011 03:07:05AM 5 points [-]

Deaf people's disadvantage is an innate property of being deaf. Black people's disadvantage comes about because a lot of people, at least implicitly, believe (possibly correctly) that being black correlates with other traits that are undesirable in and of themselves.

Comment author: lessdazed 30 October 2011 06:18:15AM *  6 points [-]

Deaf people's disadvantage is an innate property of being deaf.

I disagree that there can be innate disadvantages, except for to the extent the utility function addresses those properties directly. See:

St Addahad's Symptoms. A small group of symptoms including fleshy growths, nerve clusters and neural pathways which result in a near permanent state of distraction as patterns of air pressure change are translated into thoughts and inserted into the mind with disruptively high priority. "Sounds" from all around, indoors and out, near and far, from nearby footsteps to distant thunderstorms or even one's own bodily functions all combine to make a state of prolonged focus nearly impossible to achieve, though this ability can be regained somewhat with practise.

As with many curses, St Addahad's sufferers describe benefits as well, such as being able to know things are happening without needing to see them, and to know which direction they are happening in, and some even report being able to balance without handholds. These trivial sounding benefits appear so addictive that most refuse to be treated. Efforts are underway to cause the onset of these symptoms by technological means, but there is debate on the moral issue of such experiments on humans as the necessary interventions cannot wait until the age of consent.

Comment author: antigonus 30 October 2011 03:11:02AM 0 points [-]

Can you explain why you believe that makes a moral difference?

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 30 October 2011 12:11:10AM 4 points [-]

No, what you are doing is confusing a claim of moral superiority with a claim of superior ability -- a confusion arising because English has the inconvenient fact that it uses the word "good" to mean moral worth (he's a good person), and great ability (a good musician).

How is that a useful observation?

Well, here we tend to be a group of people that prefer the world to be improved, because we currently believe it's highly subpoptimal. Does that make it clear to you why we don't want people to be forced to stay blind or deaf or mute?

Comment author: antigonus 30 October 2011 12:23:04AM 1 point [-]

No, what you are doing is confusing a claim of moral superiority with a claim of superior ability

I don't think I'm doing that. In the instrumental sense that "ceteris paribus, hearing people can do more than deaf people," it's also true that "ceteris paribus, white people can do more than black people (due to discrimination curtailing opportunities)." Both are purely instrumental claims, and both are fairly trivial in themselves. In the deaf case and in the racial case, all else is not equal. Otherwise, we'd want to specially encourage black parents to adopt white babies instead of conceiving. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusions, just pointing out that the reasons given are incomplete.

Comment author: lessdazed 30 October 2011 01:50:36AM 2 points [-]

Arguments about how things would be ceteris paribus don't translate well into policy suggestions.

Comment author: [deleted] 30 October 2011 03:46:00PM *  1 point [-]

They can still be relevant when we're not talking about any particular person, though. They're especially relevant when we're discussing future people, who we can't come to a good understanding of but must decide whether or not to affect anyway.

Which isn't to say that we can't take other factors into account too.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 30 October 2011 12:30:59AM 1 point [-]

Otherwise, we'd want to specially encourage black parents to adopt white babies instead of conceiving.

Do you know of a way where something like this could be practically done and be successful? If so, then we might discuss the pros and cons of such a scheme.

If you don't know any such way, then this is a mere distraction and diversion at best -- or worse yet, an attempt to use the taboo topics of racial politics in an attempt to mind-kill.

Comment author: antigonus 30 October 2011 12:39:49AM 1 point [-]

Do you know of a way where something like this could be practically done and be successful?

This is a moral question. It might be the case that we don't have any practical ways of convincing people that death is bad, but that doesn't mean that death isn't bad.

If you don't know any such way, then this is a mere distraction and diversion at best -- or worse yet, an attempt to use the taboo topics of racial politics in an attempt to mind-kill.

Silas Barta introduced an anology between the deaf case and the hearing case. Atorm responded with a potential disanalogy, and I responded to him by saying that the disanalogy he provided didn't straightforwardly work. Do you seriously think I'm trying to "mind-kill" anything? I feel you're being unfair.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 30 October 2011 01:00:50AM 1 point [-]

This is a moral question.

I don't see a question mark anywhere in your comment. What is this moral question? "Why don't we encourage black people of adopting white children instead of conceiving?" "How is this different from encouraging black people of adopting white children instead of conceiving?"

Make exact what this moral question is for me -- but let me warn you that your analogy is currently much more likely to convince me that we should discourage black people of conceiving, than that deaf people have the moral right to force their children to remain deaf even if there's a cheap safe method to restore said hearing.

Comment author: antigonus 30 October 2011 02:27:52AM *  2 points [-]

What is this moral question?

So it's bad for deaf people to impair their children's hearing abilities, because all else being equal, hearing people can do more. By the same token, is it also bad for us to create black rather than white children, since "all else being equal," discrimination allows white people to do more?

More generally, how do we figure out what to hold fixed - that is, what precisely the "else" is to hold "equal" - when comparing the worthiness of two lives?

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 30 October 2011 02:47:16AM *  0 points [-]

By the same token, is it also bad for us to create black rather than white children,

"Us"? I've not created any black children, and most black people don't have the capacity to create white children. And child-creation hasn't been collectivized yet, it's still an individual process.

If someone deliberately created a child with the explicit desire of having it be socially disadvantaged enough that they'd need to partake in the culture its parents belong to, instead of having more options available, that'd be evil.

More generally, how do we figure out what to hold fixed - that is, what precisely the "else" is to hold "equal" - when comparing the worthiness of two lives?

What does worthiness have to do with anything? This is about allowing children to hear, not about who is "worth" what. About quality of life, not about justice.