The upshot is that as soon as you allow things to be immoral (or violate rights, or whatever) to various degrees, not just black and white "immoral" and "not immoral," you have exactly the same problem,
Do I correctly understand you to believe that I was including the right of individual self-determination as an independent valuative norm, rather than for its utility? (Also, please note that I did not originally use the term "right" but rather "principle".)
so talking about torture being a violation of rights doesn't bring anything new to the table unless you're prepared to bite some pretty bitter bullets.
Incorrect. I can only assume that you are thinking that I'm concerned, here, about the violation of rights in general, as opposed to individual self-determination in specific. My point was to demonstrate that the direct impact of torture vs. dustspecks goes beyond merely suffering.
Really, this only serves to illustrate my belief of the eroneous nature of associating "utilons" with "happiness". We derive utility from things other than feeling pleasure; we experience disutility from things other than experiencing suffering. However, suffering when present in sufficient quantities in a single person can and does impact those other forms of disutility... such as the loss of capacity for self-determination.
Please note: self-determination as I am using it does NOT refer to getting to choose whether or not the event itself (speck vs. torture) happens to you. It refers to the ability, thereafter, to make competent decisions about your own life, or have the capacity to determine for yourself who you wish to be.
Is the nature of your objection to my position the simple fact that I refuse to only consider the immediate suffering of the proposition?
Yeah, pretty much. If it were logically impossible for ceteris to be paribus,
I see. You are under the misapprehension that I am not applying the principle of ceteris paribus to the argument. Rest assured that this is a misapprehension. I in fact am treating this as an "all other things being equal" scenario.
I simply have a more expansive view of the definition of "consequence" than "suffering alone".
To bring in "secondary factors" (i.e. look at worlds where ceteris isn't paribus) and then decide based on those factors alone isn't a correction to the original question, it's answering a completely different question.
I never even intimated that "only the secondary consequences should be considered". Please discontinue the use of this strawman view of my argument.
Considering secondary consequences of a choice is not "looking at worlds where ceteris isn't paribus". I am quite frankly at a total loss as to understanding why you should be possessed of such a belief in the first place.
Where did I go wrong in getting you to understand that my argument is in alignment with the ceteris paribus principle?
Why do you continue to feel it appropriate do decide that only some consequences "actually count" as consequences?
Do I correctly understand you to believe that I was including the right of individual self-determination as an independent valuative norm, rather than for its utility? (Also, please note that I did not originally use the term "right" but rather "principle".)
Just that you were applying it to torture while not applying it to dust specks - a qualitative difference.
I never even intimated that "only the secondary consequences should be considered". Please discontinue the use of this strawman view of my argument.
You never sai...
For those not familiar with the topic, Torture vs. Dustspecks asks the question: "Would you prefer that one person be horribly tortured for fifty years without hope or rest, or that 3^^^3 people get dust specks in their eyes?"
Most of the discussion that I have noted on the topic takes one of two assumptions in deriving their answer to that question: I think of one as the 'linear additive' answer, which says that torture is the proper choice for the utilitarian consequentialist, because a single person can only suffer so much over a fifty year window, as compared to the incomprehensible number of individuals who suffer only minutely; the other I think of as the 'logarithmically additive' answer, which inverts the answer on the grounds that forms of suffering are not equal, and cannot be added as simple 'units'.
What I have never yet seen is something akin to the notion expressed in Ursula K LeGuin's The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas.If you haven't read it, I won't spoil it for you.
I believe that any metric of consequence which takes into account only suffering when making the choice of "torture" vs. "dust specks" misses the point. There are consequences to such a choice that extend beyond the suffering inflicted; moral responsibility, standards of behavior that either choice makes acceptable, and so on. Any solution to the question which ignores these elements in making its decision might be useful in revealing one's views about the nature of cumulative suffering, but beyond that are of no value in making practical decisions -- they cannot be, as 'consequence' extends beyond the mere instantiation of a given choice -- the exact pain inflicted by either scenario -- into the kind of society that such a choice would result in.
While I myself tend towards the 'logarithmic' than the 'linear' additive view of suffering, even if I stipulate the linear additive view, I still cannot agree with the conclusion of torture over the dust speck, for the same reason why I do not condone torture even in the "ticking time bomb" scenario: I cannot accept the culture/society that would permit such a torture to exist. To arbitrarily select out one individual for maximal suffering in order to spare others a negligible amount would require a legal or moral framework that accepted such choices, and this violates the principle of individual self-determination -- a principle I have seen Less Wrong's community spend a great deal of time trying to consider how to incorporate into Friendliness solutions for AGI. We as a society already implement something similar to this, economically: we accept taxing everyone, even according to a graduated scheme. What we do not accept is enslaving 20% of the population to provide for the needs of the State.
If there is a flaw in my reasoning here, please enlighten me.