Eugine_Nier comments on Rationality Quotes December 2011 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: Jayson_Virissimo 02 December 2011 06:01AM

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Comment author: Eugine_Nier 17 December 2011 07:19:41AM 4 points [-]

"Every Sauron considers himself a Gandalf".

The problem is that Gandalf explicitly refuses the ring for fear he would find it useful and thus be corrupted by it. Whereas Moldbug's point is about how Sauron would rationalize taking the ring. Perhaps a better phrasing would be, "Every Sauron starts out as a Boromir."

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 17 December 2011 07:44:20AM *  3 points [-]

The problem is that Gandalf explicitly refuses the ring for fear he would find it useful and thus be corrupted by it.

Like Gandalf, then, except smart enough not to pass up such an awesome opportunity to do so much good :D.

Incidentally, there's an essay by Tolkien where he explores the differences between the motivations of Morgoth and Sauron: Notes on motives in the Silmarillion. Some excerpts:

Thus, as "Morgoth", when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole ultimate object was their destruction. [...] This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object [...] Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos.

[...]

Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. [...] Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of the palantíri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him. [...] But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his "plans", the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself.

[...]

Morgoth had no "plan"; unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a "plan".

Comment author: wedrifid 17 December 2011 09:51:03AM *  0 points [-]

Like Gandalf, then, except smart enough not to pass up such an awesome opportunity to do so much good :D.

Not really. For an ultimate ring of power the ring in question seems rather pissweak. The expected alteration of his own utility function (ie. corruption) more than offsets the lame ass powers that ring gives.

Mind you Gandalf has plenty of his own power that he doesn't seem to make efficient use of. That seems a far bigger deal!

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 17 December 2011 03:00:10PM *  1 point [-]

Like Gandalf, then, except smart enough not to pass up such an awesome opportunity to do so much good :D.

Not really. For an ultimate ring of power the ring in question seems rather pissweak. The expected alteration of his own utility function (ie. corruption) more than offsets the lame ass powers that ring gives.

I was describing how Sauron views himself. He wouldn't think of the ring as corrupting or "pissweak".

Comment author: wedrifid 17 December 2011 03:03:39PM 0 points [-]

I was describing how Sauran views himself. He wouldn't think of the ring as corrupting or "pissweak".

There were two characters to the comparison; I was talking about the other one - Gandalf.

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 17 December 2011 03:22:09PM *  1 point [-]

From your replies and the downvote, it's clear that I failed to make myself clear. Here was the flow of the conversation:

I said "Every Sauron considers himself a Gandalf". Eugine_Nier pointed out that "Gandalf explicitly refuses the ring for fear he would find it useful and thus be corrupted by it." Sauron knew that Gandalf did this (IIRC), so I grant that Sauron wouldn't think that he's like Gandalf in this respect. So, I said, maybe Sauron thinks of himself like Gandalf (ie, working for the greater good), except that he (Sauron) is smart enough not to pass up such a powerful tool (for so he himself thinks it) for doing such good.

So, as you say, Gandalf considers the ring to be corrupting. But that isn't an objection to my point. That is just one of the ways in which I was saying that Sauron considers himself to be smarter.

Comment author: wedrifid 17 December 2011 03:32:54PM 0 points [-]

Even from Sauron's point of view Sauron should not be making that evaluation - at least not about the ring in particular. While for Sauron the ring is particularly powerful and not-values-changing he knows that for Gandalf it is, in fact, corrupting and also that Gandalf doesn't get anywhere near the same power from the ring.

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 17 December 2011 03:50:40PM *  1 point [-]

I think that part of Sauron's character is that he can't understand why Gandalf views the ring as corrupting. Maybe he should be able to figure this out, but I was describing how Sauron might think, not how he should think.

As for whether Gandalf would get power from the ring — It's true that the ring wouldn't give Gandalf as much power as it would give Sauron. But it would still give Gandalf a lot of power.

In some other essay, Tolkien speculates about who would win in a one-on-one fight between Gandalf-with-the-ring and Sauron-without. Unfortunately, I can't remember what Tolkien said the outcome would be, and I can't find a copy online at this moment[*]. However, I do remember that he said that it would be close, a lot closer than if neither had the ring.

Tolkien also says somewhere (in LOTR or in an essay) that the ring would make someone like Gandalf an effectively unstoppable military leader in some unspecified way (IIRC).

* ETA: Here's at least some excerpts from that "essay" (actually a letter): http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm Tolkien doesn't give a final verdict on who would win. The key passage:

Gandalf [with the ring] might be expected to master him [ie, Sauron without the ring].

[...]

One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position [of possessing the ring and fighting Sauron one-on-one]. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been lestroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained ‘righteous’, but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for ‘good’, and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).

Comment author: TheOtherDave 17 December 2011 04:03:45PM 1 point [-]

Sauron knows that Gandalf has different values than Sauron, and knows that the nature of the ring is to alter its user's values to be more like Sauron's than Gandalf's. If, knowing those two things, he can't understand why Gandalf doesn't endorse using the ring, then he's simply not thinking clearly.

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 17 December 2011 04:18:52PM *  2 points [-]

Sauron knows that Gandalf has different values than Sauron,

Sauron is probably a cynic. He probably thinks that "Every Gandalf is really a Sauron." That is, every do-gooder who seems to be guided only by virtuous principles is really a self-aggrandizing power-grabber trying to mask their power-grabbing behind a veil of pious slave-morality (as Nietzsche might put it). So (Sauron must figure), claiming the ring would actually be the best way for Gandalf to realize his own actual ends. But (Sauron must conclude) Gandalf must just be too stupid, or blinded by convention, or self-deluded, or something, to realize this.

Comment author: DanArmak 17 December 2011 05:16:37PM 0 points [-]

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained ‘righteous’, but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for ‘good’, and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).

I fail to see how this description is 'far worse' than Sauron. It seems to me far better than Sauron, who certainly wasn't ruling according to any conception of the good of his subjects.

Comment author: latanius 17 December 2011 11:47:51AM *  0 points [-]

I guess it would have been a much more powerful device in Sauron's hands... but that's the classic "we find some amazing new tech, then declare that it's wrong and the best thing we can do is to stay where we are" story, found in lots of sci-fi stories. (There surely is some tv tropes concept for this...)

By the way, the Ring is even cooler than that... see HPMOR chapter 64 (or is this Reasoning from Non-Canonical Evidence? :P)

(edit: ch. 64 is Omake files 3 with non-HP fanfics, so I really really hope it's free of HPMOR spoilers...)

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