I guess it wasn't clear, C1 and C2 reffered to the reasonings as well as the conclusions they reached. You say belief is of no importance here, but I don't see how you can talk about "defeat" if you're not talking about justified believing.
For the first bullet: no, it is not possible, in any case, to conclude C2, for not to agree that one made a mistake (i.e., reasoned invalidly to T) is to deny the truth of ~T which was shown by Ms. Math to be true (a valid deduction).
I'm not sure if I understood what you said here. You agree with what I said in the first bullet or not?
Second bullet: in the case of a theorem, to show the falsity of a conclusion (of a theorem) is to show that it is invalid. To say there is a mistake is a straightforward corollary of the nature of deductive inference that an invalid motion was committed.
Are you sure that's correct? If there's a contradiction within the set of axioms, you could find T and ~T following valid deductions, couldn't you? Proving ~T and proving that the reasoning leading to T was invalid are only equivalent if you assume the axioms are not contradictory. Am I wrong?
P1, P2, and P3 are axiomatic statements. And their particular relationship indicates (the theorem) S, at least to the one who drew the conclusion. If a Ms. Math comes to show the invalidity of T (by F), such that ~T is valid (such that S = ~T), then that immediately shows that the claim of T (~S) was false. There is no need for belief here; ~T (or S) is true, and our fellow can continue in the vain belief that he wasn't defeated, but that would be absolutely illogical; therefore, our fellow must accept the truth of ~T and admit defeat, or else he'll have departed from the sphere of logic completely.
The problem I see here is: it seems like you are assuming that the proof of ~T shows clearly the problem (i.e. the invalid reasoning step) with the proof of T I previously reasoned. If it doesn't, all the information I have is that both T and ~T are derived apparently validly from the axioms F, P1, P2, and P3. I don't see why logic would force me to accept ~T instead of believing there's a mistake I can't see in the proof Ms. Math showed me, or, more plausibly, to conclude that the axioms are contradictory.
...I don't see how you can talk about "defeat" if you're not talking about justified believing
"Defeat" would solely consist in the recognition of admitting to ~T instead of T. Not a matter of belief per se.
You agree with what I said in the first bullet or not?
No, I don't.
...The problem I see here is: it seems like you are assuming that the proof of ~T shows clearly the problem (i.e. the invalid reasoning step) with the proof of T I previously reasoned. If it doesn't, all the information I have is that both T and ~T are derived app
I present here two puzzles of rationality you LessWrongers may think is worth to deal with. Maybe the first one looks more amenable to a simple solution, while the second one has called attention of a number of contemporary epistemologists (Cargile, Feldman, Harman), and does not look that simple when it comes to a solution. So, let's go to the puzzles!
Puzzle 1
At t1 I justifiably believe theorem T is true, on the basis of a complex argument I just validly reasoned from the also justified premises P1, P2 and P3.
So, in t1 I reason from premises:
(R1) P1, P2 ,P3
To the known conclusion:
(T) T is true
At t2, Ms. Math, a well known authority on the subject matter of which my reasoning and my theorem are just a part, tells me I’m wrong. She tells me the theorem is just false, and convince me of that on the basis of a valid reasoning with at least one false premise, the falsity of that premise being unknown to us.
So, in t2 I reason from premises (Reliable Math and Testimony of Math):
(RM) Ms. Math is a reliable mathematician, and an authority on the subject matter surrounding (T),
(TM) Ms. Math tells me T is false, and show to me how is that so, on the basis of a valid reasoning from F, P1, P2 and P3,
(R2) F, P1, P2 and P3
To the justified conclusion:
(~T) T is not true
It could be said by some epistemologists that (~T) defeat my previous belief (T). Is it rational for me to do this way? Am I taking the correct direction of defeat? Wouldn’t it also be rational if (~T) were defeated by (T)? Why ~(T) defeats (T), and not vice-versa? It is just because ~(T)’s justification obtained in a later time?
Puzzle 2
At t1 I know theorem T is true, on the basis of a complex argument I just validly reasoned, with known premises P1, P2 and P3. So, in t1 I reason from known premises:
(R1) P1, P2 ,P3
To the known conclusion:
(T) T is true
Besides, I also reason from known premises:
(ME) If there is any evidence against something that is true, then it is misleading evidence (evidence for something that is false)
(T) T is true
To the conclusion (anti-misleading evidence):
(AME) If there is any evidence against (T), then it is misleading evidence
At t2 the same Ms. Math tells me the same thing. So in t2 I reason from premises (Reliable Math and Testimony of Math):
(RM) Ms. Math is a reliable mathematician, and an authority on the subject matter surrounding (T),
(TM) Ms. Math tells me T is false, and show to me how is that so, on the basis of a valid reasoning from F, P1, P2 and P3,
But then I reason from::
(F*) F, RM and TM are evidence against (T), and
(AME) If there is any evidence against (T), then it is misleading evidence
To the conclusion:
(MF) F, RM and TM is misleading evidence
And then I continue to know T and I lose no knowledge, because I know/justifiably believe that the counter-evidence I just met is misleading. Is it rational for me to act this way?
I know (T) and I know (AME) in t1 on the basis of valid reasoning. Then, I am exposed to misleading evidences (Reliable Math), (Testimony of Math) and (F). The evidentialist scheme (and maybe still other schemes) support the thesis that (RM), (TM) and (F) DEFEATS my justification for (T) instead. So that whatever I inferred from (T) is no longer known. However, given my previous knowledge of (T) and (AME), I could know that (MF): F is misleading evidence. It can still be said that (RM), (TM) and (F) DEFEAT my justification for (T), given that (MF) DEFEAT my justification for (RM), (TM) and (F)?