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TheOtherDave comments on So You Want to Save the World - Less Wrong
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Comments (146)
I agree with you that "my desire is not do do X, therefore I wouldn't do X even if I knew it was the right thing to do" isn't a valid argument. It's also not what I said. What I said was "my desire is not do do X, therefore I wouldn't choose to desire to do X even if I could choose that." Whether it's right or wrong doesn't enter into it.
As for your scenario... yes, I agree with you that IF "eating babies is wrong" is the sort of thing that can be discovered about the world, THEN an AI could discover it, and THEREFORE is not guaranteed to continue eating babies just because it initially values baby-eating.
It is not clear to me that "eating babies is wrong" is the sort of thing that can be discovered about the world. Can you clarify what sort of information I might find that might cause me to "find out" that eating babies is wrong, if I didn't already believe that?
Let me get this straight, are you saying that if you believe X, there can't possibly exist any information that you haven't discovered yet that could convince your belief is false? You can't know what connections and conclusions might AI deduce out of every information put together. They might conclude that humanity is a stain of universe and even if they thought wiping humanity out wouldn't accomplish anything (and they strongly desired against doing so), they might wipe us out purely because the choice "wipe humanity" would be assigned higher value than the choice "not to wipe out humanity".
Also, is the statement "my desire is not do do X, therefore I wouldn't choose to desire to do X even if I could choose that." your subjective feeling, or do you base it on some studies? For example, this statement doesn't apply to me, as I would, under certain circumstances, choose to desire to do X, even if it was not my desire initially. Therefore it's not an universal truth, therefore may not apply to AI either.
No. I'm saying that if I value X, I can't think of any information that would cause me to value NOT(X) instead.
Can you give me an example of something you desire not to do, which you would willingly edit yourself to desire to do?
If you have lexicographic preferences, and prefer W to X, and you learn that NOT(X) and W are equivalent?
Er, this seems to imply that you believe yourself immune to being hacked, which can't be right; human brains are far from impregnable. Do you consider such things to not be information in this context, or are you referring to "I" in a general "If I were an AI" sense, or something else?
Mm, interesting question. I think that when I said it, I was referring to "I" in a "if I were an AI" sense. Or, rather, "if I were an AI properly designed to draw inferences from information while avoiding value drift," since of course it's quite possible to build an AI that doesn't have this property. I was also clearly assuming that X is the only thing I value; if I value X and Y, discovering that Y implies NOT(X) might lead me to value NOT(X) instead. (Explicitly, I mean. In this example I started out valuing X and NOT(X), but I didn't necessarily know it.)
But the question of what counts as information (as opposed to reprogramming attempts) is an intriguing one that I'm not sure how to address. On five seconds thought, it seems clear that there's no clear line to be drawn between information and attempts to hack my brain, and that if I want such a distinction to exist I need to design a brain that enforces that kind of security... certainly evolution hasn't done so.
Ok, I guess we were talking about different things, then.
I don't see any point in giving particular examples. More importantly, even if I didn't support my claim, it wouldn't mean your argument was correct. The burden of proof lies on your shoulders, not mine. Anyway, here's one example, quite cliche - I would choose to sterilize myself, if I realized that having intercourse with little girls is wrong (or that having intercourse at all is wrong, whatever the reason..) Even if it was my utmost desire, and in my wholeness I believed that it is my purpose to have intercourse , I would choose to modify that desire if I realized it's wrong - or illogical, or stupid, or anything. It doesn't matter really.
THERFORE:
(A) I do not desire not to have intercourse. (B) But based on new information, I found out that having intercourse produces great evil. => I choose to alter my desire (A).
You might say that by introducing new desire (not to produce evil) I no longer desire (A), and I say, fine. Now, how do you want to ensure that the AI won't create it's own new desires based on new facts.
Burden of proof hasn't come up. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm exploring your beliefs because I'm curious about them. (I'm similarly clarifying my beliefs when you ask about them.)
What I would actually say is that "don't produce evil" isn't a new value, and you didn't lose your original value ("intercourse") either. Rather, you started out with both values, and then you discovered that your values conflicted, and you chose to resolve that conflict by eliminating one of those values.
Presumably you eliminated your intercourse-value because it was the weaker of the two.. you valued it less. Had you valued intercourse more, you would instead have instead chosen to eliminate your desire to not be evil.
Another way of putting this is that you started out with two values which, aggregated, constituted a single complex value which is hard to describe in words.
This is exactly right! The important trick is to build a system whose desires (I would say, rather, whose values) remain intact as it uncovers new facts about the world.
As you say, this is impossible if the system can derive values from facts... derive "ought" from "is." Conversely, it is theoretically possible, if facts and values are distinct sorts of things. So, yes: the goal is to build an AI architecture whose basic values are distinct from its data... whose "oughts" are derived from other "oughts" rather than entirely from "is"es.
Alright - that is to create completely deterministic AI system, or otherwise, to my belief, it would be impossible to predict how the AI is going to react. Anyway, I admit that I have not read much on the matter, and it's just reasoning... so thanks for your insight.
It is impossible for me to predict how a sufficiently complex system will react to most things. Heck, I can't even predict my dog's behavior most of the time. But there are certain things I know she values, and that means I can make certain predictions pretty confidently: she won't turn down a hot dog if I offer it, for example.
That's true more generally as well: knowing what a system values allows me to confidently make certain broad classes of predictions about it. If a superintelligent system wants me to suffer, for example, I can't predict what it's going to do, but I can confidently predict that I will suffer.
Yea, I get it... I believe, though, that it's impossible to create an AI (self-aware, learning) that has set values, that can't change - more importantly, I am not even sure if its desired (but that depends what our goal is - whether to create AI only to perform certain simple tasks or whether to create a new race, something that precedes us (which WOULD ultimately mean our demise, anyway))
(nods) Whether it's possible or not is generally an open question. There's a lot of skepticism about it (I'm fairly skeptical myself), but as with most technical questions, I'm generally content to have smart people research the question in more detail than I'm going to.
As to whether it's desirable, though... well, sure, of course it depends on our goals. If all I want is (as you say) to create a new race to replace humanity, and I'm indifferent as to the values of that race, then of course there's no reason for me to care about whether a self-improving AI I create will avoid value drift.
Personally, I'm more or less OK with something replacing humanity, but I'd prefer whatever that is to value certain things. For example, a commonly used trivial example around here of a hypothetical failure mode is a "paperclip maximizer" -- an AI that only valued the existence of paperclips, and consequently reassembled all matter it can get its effectors on as paperclips. A paperclip maximizer with powerful enough effectors reassembles everything into paperclips.
I would prefer that not happen, from which I conclude that I'm not in fact indifferent as to the values of a sufficiently powerful AI... I desire that such a system preserve at least certain values. (It is difficult to state precisely what values those are, of course. Human values are complex.) I therefore prefer that it avoid value drift with respect to those values.
How about you?
Well first, I was all for creating an AI to become the next stage. I was a very singularity-happy type of guy. I saw it as a way out of this world's status quo - corruption, state of politics, etc... but the singularity would ultimately mean I and everybody else would cease to exist, at least in their true sense. You know, I have these romantic dreams, similar to Yudkowsky's idea of dancing in an orbital night club around Saturn, and such. I don't want to be fused in one, even though possibly amazing, matrix of intelligence, which I think is how the things will play out, eventually. Even though, I can't imagine what it will be like and how it will pan out, as of now I just don't cherish the idea much.
But yea, I could say that I am torn between moving on, advancing, and between more or less stagnating and in our human form.
But in answer to your question: if we were to creating an AI to replace us, I'd hate it to become paperclip maximizer. I don't think it's likely.
That would be an impressive achievement! Mind you if I create and AI that can achieve time travel I would probably tell it to use it's abilities somewhat differently.
Charity led me to understand "precedes us" to mean takes precedence over us in a non-chronological sense.
But as long as we're here... why would you do that? If a system is designed to alter the future of the world in a way I endorse, it seems I ought to be willing to endorse it altering the past that way too. If I'm unwilling to endorse it altering the past, it's not clear why I would be willing to endorse it altering the future.
Why? Do you think paperclip maximizers are impossible?
You don't mean that as a dichotomy, do you?
Yes, right now I think it's impossible to create self-improving, self-aware AI with fixed values. I never said that paperclip maximizing can't be their ultimate life goal, but they could change it anytime they like.
No.