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ABrooks comments on What Curiosity Looks Like - Less Wrong
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Well, I agree that not every case of breaking the law is immoral, but I think I'd be happy to defend the claim that moral wrongness is a characteristic of the subset of legal violations undertaken for the sake of one's personal convenience. And your point about set membership doesn't seem right: it is in virtue of membership in 'elephants' that an animal has a trunk, even if its true of some elephants that they do not have trunks (wounded elephants say).
If I've failed to respond to any questions regarding my comparison of filesharing to theft, then this is purely because of my lack of understanding. Could you clarify for me the challange to this comparison, if you have the time and inclination? Or would you prefer that I made my own case more pointed first?
I thought I'd already done that. In this thread, for instance.
We seem to be using the word 'characteristic' in different senses.
Anyway, from a Bayesian perspective, as the proportion of elephants without trunks is small, I can be reasonably sure that any given elephant will have a trunk. However, if someone tells me, 'hey, that elephant there doesn't have a trunk', I reason that it's unlikely (but not impossible) that someone would tell me that if the elephant did, in fact, have a trunk. If I want more information about whether the elephant has a trunk, I'd go look at the elephant myself.
More or less the same reasoning applies in this case, except that instead of one person, you've got a large proportion of the people on the internet telling you that copyright is immoral and its infringement is not comparable to theft. Therefore, you should debate these issues on their merits, instead of relying on what group they belong to with regard to legality.
I remember when I was in college and Napster first came out. In a dorm hall, we didn't really have TV's, nor did we read a lot of news, and at least I wasn't researching the subject of file sharing. No publishing company would have had an opportunity to talk to me about it, and I don't remember ever being told that filesharing was stealing.
Except that I immediately recognized it as such. It was something you did when you wanted something that cost money, but you didn't want to pay for it. So you just went and did something illegal so as to get it for free. That struck me as stealing (though I did it anyway, of course). It also struck everyone else as stealing. No one was confused by anyone else's calling it that, and no one, so far as I remember, brought up any objections to the idea. And there's a reason why the companies that now do try to villify the act choose to call it stealing instead of trespassing, or infringement, or whatever. Stealing seems to intuitively capture the nature of it, and the (mild) immorality of it. I think plagerism is called stealing for very similar reasons, even though like CR infringement, it doesn't result in anyone losing what's stolen.
You're right, a large number of people ('large proportion' seems adventurous) are telling me that it's not at all like stealing. They also tell me that copyright law is immoral. They also tend to have substantial economic interests in believing these things. This at least makes me suspicious. But ultimately, nothing really hangs on the comparison to theft. It just seems apt. To me, and in my experience to most everyone who isn't defending their own practice of it.
Breaking the law isn't always immoral. In cases where the law itself is immoral and breaking it can serve to undermine the law, it's even a good thing. But is this one of those cases? An act of filesharing doesn't accomplish anything by way of undermining the law. An act of filesharing accomplishes only this: there's something you want which by law costs money. But you don't want to pay for it, so you find a way to get it for free by infringing upon that law. That's all we're talking about here: a practice of infringing upon a law for your personal gain. Even if copyright is immoral, breaking the law for your personal gain isn't thereby perfectly permissible.
That argument is about as valid as Aristotle's argument that heavier objects must fall faster. Your intuitions are not magic, when challenged you can't just point to your intuitions and say "Objections? What objections? Can't hear any." You still haven't addressed any of the arguments for why it's a bad comparison.
And the fact that those who push the "infringement is theft!!" agenda most forcefully have substantial economic interests in blocking the distribution of works through non-traditional channels is not suspicious at all. Neither does the fact that, historically, a technological advance comparable to the internet (the printing press) was fought tooth and nail by an entity comparable to today's Big Media (the Catholic Church) on the pretext of blocking the distribution of unauthorised works (non-Latin versions of the Bible), ring any alarm bells, even though non-Latin Bibles are seen as perfectly ordinary things now. No sir, nothing suspicious here, just a bunch of filthy Pirates making a ruckus.
Ergo, setting up the Pirate Bay is a moral act, but downloading something off it is not?
Hmm, have you read Aristotle? So far as I can tell, his most extended argument on the matter is Physics IV.8, where he argues that in an atmosphere, heavier things fall faster because they are better able to divide the medium owing to greater downward force. He then argues that in a void, heavier and lighter things would fall with the same speed. Since this is not what we observe (we do in fact often observe heavier things falling faster for the reason Aristotle cites) there cannot be any void.
Aristotle is complicated and surprising, and rarely does any common knowledge capture his views well.
My intuitions aren't magic. Though my having an ethical opinion is some evidence that this opinion is true or in the region of the truth. As I said my argument doesn't hang on the comparison with theft. If the activity strikes me as theft, and most people as theft, then this is pretty good evidence that it's like theft. It's not conclusive or anything, but still good evidence.
I couldn't follow your printing press argument, I think largely because it involved some complicated sarcasm. If you like, ignore my point about economic interest. It's not very important.
Did I say setting up the Pirate Bay is a moral act? I take it you wish to argue that CR law is immoral or impracticable? And how your filesharing a book helps to undermine that law? Could you explain this?
If slavery strikes a slave-owner as right to property, and most people in the slave-owner's society as right to property, is that also pretty good evidence that slavery is right to property?
If homosexuality strikes a person as unnatural, and most of the people in his society as unnatural, is that pretty good evidence that homosexuality is unnatural?
The beliefs of a particular society at a particular time provide pretty weak evidence, at best.
In that case, we shall leave that aside for now.
Behold the wrath of Lob's theorem. (Short version: I believe yo momma is fat. Since I'm a rational agent, my belief is evidence for it. Thus I can assert with high certainty that yo momma is fat.)
I note that the sentence was 4 lines long. Not exactly optimal for comprehension, I guess... I'll come back to the Catholic Church later. For now...
I take it that this is you major point?
Fine, but before we discuss the morality of copyright... I'd ask if you still maintain (1) the following
And also if you maintain that (2) the Pirate Bay serves to undermine copyright.
Given (1) and (2), I take it you also maintain that (3) if copyright were immoral, setting up the Pirate Bay would be moral?
In addition, do you also maintain that (4) even if copyright were immoral, downloading something from the Pirate Bay would still be an immoral act?
Sure.
It just turns out to be overwhelmed by other evidence that points to these assertions being either false or meaningless. Lots of things are evidence -- sometimes even strong evidence -- for all kinds of claims, including false claims.
Once we're talking about probabilistic arguments that affect confidence levels, it's entirely possible to have legitimate arguments that favor a false conclusion. That's why cherry-picking evidence is such an effective rhetorical technique, and why continuing to look for and evaluate new evidence is important.
Just sayin'.
The argument I had in mind was that the beliefs of a particular society are inherently weak evidence for whether something is ethical, and reasonably strong evidence of this can only be gained by looking at the trends of such beliefs in different societies over time.
Of course, I didn't actually make a case for any of that, but instead went with "This 'evidence' gave us absurd results on these few occasions, therefore it must be invalid!!" which is obviously not a valid argument.
It's clear I'm getting carried away by my own rhetoric here. I'll try to cut down on the rhetoric and focus on what I actually want to say.
Taboo right to property.
Taboo unnatural.
I don't see what the point of that would be. What I was saying was 'a behaviour was/is classified by most people as X', where X generally has the connotation of perfectly OK/utterly wrong. I doubt unpacking X would offer any insight. (Except for the obvious one that X is a group of things that do not belong together; but isn't that obvious just from what I said?)
For a start, you have to make clear if they are two-place or one-place words. If a sentence strikes a person as ungrammatical, and most of the people in his society as ungrammatical, is that pretty good evidence that that sentence is ungrammatical? Of course it is; indeed, that's about as strong evidence for that as I can imagined. If a technology strikes a person as impossible, and most of the people in his society as physically impossible, is that pretty good evidence that that technology is impossible? Not very: even Kelvin thought Heavier-than-air flying machines were impossible. Now, is unnatural more like ungrammatical or more like impossible? That depends on what unnatural means.
That follows from what I said, and I think it true. But Dave said what I would say, so I'll leave it at that. I think that in general people's ethical opinions are substantial, though certainly not conclusive, evidence for the truth of those opinions. Just as the opinions of a doctor are strong evidence for the truth of a medical opinion, so to with this. Only, in the case of ethics, we are all experts if anyone is.
None of this seems to have anything to do with Lob's theorem, which is about formal proofs and self reference within logical systems. If I'm mistaken, please correct me. As it stands, reference to it seems like a very abstract and pretty unhelpful metaphor.
I'd like some help with (2), as I'm not very familiar with how PB does this. Does PB make it less likely that CR law to exist in the future? If CR law is immoral (which isn't implausible to me) and PB does this, then the conclusion that setting up and supporting PB would itself be plausible.
I would maintain this in the face of (3) if filesharing in infringement of CR law was done with the aim of self-interest and if it had no plausible connection to making CR laws less likely in the future.
I disagree with that, but arguing it in the general case would take us on a long-winded tangent. As long as we agree that the majority ethical opinion is found to be wrong rather frequently (with sufficient frequency to suspect that we might have discovered another flaw recently), the exact degree to which different kinds of evidence are reliable are irrelevant.
The relevant explanation is in the post that the word 'before' links to. Basically, if you consider your own belief as evidence for something, you can believe anything and have evidence for it. (The evidence being your own belief in it.)
Is that what you mean by 'undermine'? It may or may not affect the probability of CR laws existing in the future, but what it does is enable large-scale violations of CR law and thus make it very difficult to enforce. That is what I mean by 'undermine'.
I really don't get what you're getting at here. Violations of the law are only moral if they help in the repeal of the law, but not in and of themselves? But... why say the law is immoral, unless it prevents moral acts or rewards immoral acts?
Ah, I guess the answer to that is in the question itself. A law can be immoral, yet some parts of it can be perfectly moral.
So let me add to my original conditions: (2.5) That if free sharing of copyrighted materials were moral, copyright law would be immoral?
And (4.5) Even if free sharing of copyrighted materials were moral, downloading something off the Pirate Bay would still be immoral, as it must, by your definition of 'personal gain', lead to personal gain for the downloader?
I think it's pretty reasonable to consider my belief for something as evidence for it, but I agree that this can't be the end of the story. For instance, I consider my belief that my car is green as evidence for the greenness of my car, but because I also have reason to believe that I'm familiar with the color of my car, I have reliable eyesight, there's no reason that it might have been repainted recently, etc. The point is, the opinion of an expert (in a loose sense of the word) is evidence for the truth of that opinion, and I am an expert on the color of my car.
I'm also a competent ethical agent, or at any rate no less (though probably no more) competent than most people. If something once struck me as stealing, that's a good reason to believe that it was. It's not conclusive, but it's significant evidence. If I didn't think this, I don't think I could practically operate in the world.
Right. The reason you violate the law matters to the morality of the violation. In other words, the morality of an act is directly informed by the fact that it is a violation of the law and by the attitude of the agent with respect to the law. If you have good reason to think CR law is immoral, and you violate it with the aim of removing the law and have good reason to think your violation will accomplish that task, then I think this would be hard to question morally. One is taking a stand.
If one is violating CR law because it saves you $25 on a book, and maybe it will remove the law but there's no clear path there, and really one doesn't bother over that because saving money was the goal, then I think this is pretty straightforwardly immoral.
Agreed, though the antecedent seems obviously false (in absence of the legal problem, this activity is pretty much morally neutral). If by 'moral' you mean 'morally permissible' (in the way brushing your teeth is) then I don't agree, since laws forbidding morally permissible things (like distributing your own currency) are absolutely necessary.
If by 'moral' you mean 'permissible', then yes: if it is permissible morally but illegal, than violating that law just because it's convenient to you or saves you some money is immoral. If by 'moral' you mean 'morally good' then I'd need more information on the nature of the good act.
The trick to remember is not to double-count your belief. You shouldn't take your belief as both a prior and evidence, nor should you count your belief along with the evidence that generated that belief. Evidence screens off belief in much the same way argument screens off authority.
Normally, one would include beliefs in one's priors, and thus would not count them as evidence.
Or I might incidentally violate it in the course of doing whatever morally good act it supposedly prevents.
Do you contend that (6) capitalism is morally good? By and large, it improves the quality of people's lives over time. However, most people engage in capitalism motivated by personal gain.
Therefore... If you agree with [6], do you still maintain that (7) entering into capitalism with the aim of personal gain is immoral, even though a large number of people doing it results in the morally good outcome described in [6]?
And if you say 'no' to [7], do you maintain (8) that [7] would be immoral if capitalism were illegal?
To add to TheOtherDave's reply, note policy debates should not appear one-sided.
Do you mean Physics IV.8 ? There he asserts that velocity = (weight / density). The argument that there cannot be any void is that you cannot divide by zero - in modern terms, the velocity of the falling objects would approach infinity as density approaches zero.
Galileo established that this equation greatly overestimates the density of water when compared to experimental results. Also, Aristotle's equation would suggest that a brick would fall twice as fast as half of a brick, which would have been easy to test; sadly, while Aristotle was one of the best empiricists of his time, he still didn't think of actually looking.
I did, I edited it but not in time. Thanks for the catch.
Your description of Aristotle's argument proceeding the one I cited seems accurate to me, though it doesn't seem to me that Aristotle took the correctness of his ratio to be important: he doesn't bring it up again, and a different ratio would have produced the same result so far as his argument went. So...
Why look? His point is that the difference in fall-rates of heaver and lighter objects is due to a ratio of downward force against atmospheric resistance. That's roughly right. The ratio itself doesn't matter, if the point is just to argue against motion in a void. As a matter of understanding Aristotle's physics, it's important to understand that he didn't really care about mechanics. His physics is about a different subject matter.
The argument I described to Anubhav follows the one you cite. I'll quote it here:
The point here isn't that Aristotle was right. We can just point to any aspect of astrophysics to see that he wasn't. The point is just that we tend to attribute to Aristotle a lot of views that he didn't hold, and about matters that weren't important to his overall project.
Meh. I don't think many people would expect an open umbrella to fall through air faster than a pen cap does, even though everybody knows the former is heavier.
I'm reminded of a mechanics exam in college that involved calculating the trajectory and location/velocity at impact of a parachutist jumping from an airplane. ("... Ignore air resistance.")
I had a similar one, too. (After noticing people laughing, the professor did say something like “that only applies to the time before the parachute is opened”, IIRC.)
-Aristotle, On the Heavens, IV.6
No one is arguing that Aristotle is right about science, mind you. He was obviously not. I'm just saying his views aren't often well represented by common opinion. This isn't terribly important, since Aristotle isn't terribly important, but I thought it was worth pointing out.