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komponisto comments on Mandatory Secret Identities - Less Wrong
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I asked "what is the term for X?" and you (or, strictly, another commenter, whose comment you endorsed) replied "Fictional!". You know perfectly well that that was nothing but a wisecrack reply. To state the freaking obvious, the meaning of "fictional" is "not real" and is thus much, much, broader than what I was looking for. For one thing, the term includes heroes as well as villains! There are plenty, plenty of fictional characters who do not meet the description I provided (a description which was not even intended to be taken literally, but merely as a pointer to the closest empirical cluster -- as is the standard convention in ordinary human conversation, which this was intended as an instance of, because [newsflash!] the original comment was an offhand remark!)
And no, I did not in that instance mean to accuse you of a fallacy. The "non sequitur fallacy" is only one of two commonly used senses of the term "non sequitur". The other is a remark which is inappropriate in the context. For example, if I say "The moon is made of green cheese", and you, instead of saying "What?! No it isn't", say instead, "I wonder whether my uncle Harry would like to buy a new car", that could be described as a "non sequitur" -- an utterance which isn't an appropriate way to follow the previous one. That is what I meant to accuse you of. Maybe it was an ill-considered accusation, maybe there is a better, more precise term for a wisecrack remark that superficially appears to answer the question but actually doesn't and is merely a rhetorical way to dismiss the question and cause the asker to lose status....but I didn't think of it in time -- I was too busy acting quickly to fend off what I expected would be an onslaught of upvotes for you (or, rather, your confederate), maybe even accompanied by downvotes for me.
Anybody trying to be charitable would realize, would assume, that the fictional character was cited only for the sake of convenience. Now, evidently we have a substantive disagreement about whether the traits in question are actually possessed by any real humans, but the reference was made before that disagreement was revealed. Had I known your and JoshuaZ's beliefs about the matter, I never would have used a fictional example.
I don't actually care, in this context, about what sociopathy is "actually like" if the word refers to a phenomenon other than the one I intended to refer to. If you and JoshuaZ believe the phenomenon I had in mind doesn't exist, that would have been enough of a nontrivial point to make without going into the tangential subject of the separate, unrelated phenomenon that (apparently) receives the label in standard clinical discourse.
Well, I'm sorry to hear that -- but I felt under attack from your comments, which seemed rhetorically excessive and out of proportion to my own. I was merely seeking to "tap out" without conceding anything.
To be sure, I expressed disagreement regarding the inappropriateness too but the difference in interpretation regarding whether the 'fallacy' sense applies is interesting (well, slightly, anyhow). By my reading both senses apply. The first ("WTF? That's completely irrelevant.") is obviously there. While your question and nsheppard's reply constitute a simple question and answer pair they also convey implied arguments. That is, a rhetorical question with an answer that invalidates the implied argument of that question. If the answer is non-sequitur ("Well, that was random") then the implied argument is, in fact, fallacious reasoning.
Note that even if the question is interpreted to be nothing more than an expression of curiosity the answer still represents an argument. Something along the lines of "The Joker is fictional. Psychiatric diagnosis categories are created for real people. There doesn't need to be any psychiatric label that applies to a category represented by a fictional entity." That implied argument would certainly be falacious if the answer was irrelevant.
The above said I can certainly see why you could legitimately interpret the fallacy as not applying and I am naturally willing to retroactively change my claimed offense to the charge that I was saying things that make no sense in the context. ;)
My original charitable interpretation was abandoned when "fictional" was challenged as non-sequitur and the Joker was maintained over a series of comments. The most significant benefit-of-the-doubt destroyer was actually a reply to this comment by JoshuaZ that doesn't seem to exist any more.
For what it is worth if you had said "Lex Luthor" I would have agreed that he (approximately) represents real sociopaths and even agreed that such people are the closest thing that we have to UFAI. It is only the details of what a sociopath actually is that I disagreed with.
That much I wouldn't object to.
Do you think, in retrospect, it might have been better to give an answer like "I doubt that there are enough people in reality who fit your description for there to be an established term for the category." instead of "fictional"? It seems like that would have gotten your point across more clearly and helped avoid a lot of the subsequent side-track into whether "fictional" is a sensible answer or not.
Absolutely not. Nsheppard's is perhaps the most salient comment in the entire thread, closely followed by genius's follow up. This site would be a worse place if it was not made. I would of course not have expressed my agreement with nsheppard if I had predicted that it would receive a hostile response but would most certainly have defended nsheppard if the 'non-sequitur' accusations were then directly leveled at him instead of me.
(Your answer is a good one too, and I would have liked to see that comment made in addition to the 'fictional' comment.)
I note that nsheppard's "fictional" answer remains at +5 at the time of this comment and this is despite it being subjected to a tantrum which can usually be expected to significantly lower the rating. This indicates that my continued endorsement of his reply is actually in line with consensus.
There are other things I would of course write differently in retrospect, and participants who I have learned to interact with differently (if at all) in the future---but the 'fictional' comment is most definitely not the place at which I would intervene to counterfactually change the past if I could.
If you'll pardon me while I reciprocate with a similar question, why did you think it was a good idea to ask me the quoted question? By my estimation even casually following my comments for a month would be enough to predict with significant confidence that that kind of reply to a rhetorical question is something that I would reflectively endorse myself making or upvote from others. Most people could probably predict that even just having read the context in this thread. Of course I am going to disagree.
The aforementioned entirely predictable disagreement doesn't mean that you can't assert your position but it does mean that if you ask a direct question then my possible responses are ignore or retort. (Or, of course, lie, obfuscate or fog but let's focus on the direct responses.) I know you don't like (or, I suppose, your past self didn't like) 'ignore' and replying with disagreement just amounts to extending the exact same pointless side-track that you wanted to avoid.
So I ask you, is the problem that you didn't think it through or that my preferences regarding how questions like that should be responded to are insufficiently transparent? And this is a surprisingly sincere question. One of the many posts that I'd like to write but only have the rudimentary notes prepared for actually is "On Rhetorical Questions and the Response Thereto" (although I think I'd come up with a better name). And yes, it would include a section endorsing the kind of response you suggest here, too.
It's the latter. In fact even after reading your comment I still don't understand why you think "fictional" is a good reply in addition to my suggestion. You said
But I don't understand why this is true. Can you explain more?
I guess this explains why you didn't explain more why you still endorse "fictional". Let me clarify: my preferences are that the original discussion didn't get side-tracked, but once we're already side-tracked, I don't think a shorter side-track is necessarily better than a longer one, if for example the longer one is more likely to resolve the disagreement in a way that would prevent future side-tracks like it.
I was hoping that either 1) once you considered my alternative answer and my reasons for why it's better, you would agree with me that it would have been a good idea to use that instead of "fictional", in which case we would be able to communicate better in the future and avoid similar side-tracks, or 2) you would disagree and explain why, in a way that makes me realize I've been having some false beliefs or behaving suboptimally.
I get the feeling from this that you don't like rhetorical questions, but I'm not sure if that's the case, or if it is, why. Do you prefer that I had phrased my comment like the following? (Or let me know if I should just wait for your post to explain this.)
I'm glad to hear this, I much prefer it to David's interpretation.
Perhaps, but it would be unwise. I have done far more explaining than is optimal already and my model of observed social behavior in this context is not one that predicts reason to change minds. ie. In a context where this kind of disengenuity is above -3 supplying reasons would be an error similar in kind to bringing a knife to a gun fight.
Note that this isn't to say you are too mind killed to communicate with, rather it is to say that systematic voting and replying based on already intrenched political affiliations would overwhelm any signal regarding the actual subject matter, leaving you an inaccurate perception of how the subject matter is perceived in general.
I don't mind them, they are appropriate from time to time. I am aware, however, that they are often given privileged status such that answering them directly in a way that doesn't support the implied argument is sometimes considered 'missing the point' rather than rejecting it. Rhetorical questions are a powerful dark arts technique and don't need additional support and encouragement when they fail.
Absolutely. Or, rather, if you had believed as David did that the answer to the question was pretty damn obviously "No" then your original comment would be a far more personal act of aggression than this one would have been. But I don't think this is because it was a rhetorical question but rather because it would be a form that is more personal, presumptive, condescending and disingenuous. The only general problem with 'rhetorical questions' that would be pertinent is that they are often just as socially effective at supporting bullshit as supporting coherent positions. (The 'bullshit' here refers to the countefactually-known-to-be-false assumption that I would agree with you if I reflected. It does not apply if either you were sincerely in doubt or you used the revised argument form).
I disagree. I think you probably have a bias in how you interpret voting patterns, and the situation is not as politicized as you think. However, I am more curious about what your reasons are than how others judge your reasons, so if you continue to worry about giving me an inaccurate perception of how the subject matter is perceived in general, please send me a PM with your reasons.
It seems to me that rhetorical questions are more of a dark arts technique when you're making a speech and can use them to lead your audience to a desired conclusion. In a debate or discussion on the other hand, it seems easy to counter a rhetorical question by laying out the implied argument and then pointing out whatever flaws might exist in it. I think I often use rhetorical questions for hedging:
which seems like a pretty reasonable use.
If a third-party observer's perspective helps: your preferences seemed sufficiently predictable to me that I'd tentatively understood Wei Dai's question as primarily a rhetorical one, intended to indirectly convey the suggestion that it would have been better to give such a response.
I was wary of making that suggestion because that would mean the whole "avoid a lot of the subsequent side-track into whether 'fictional' is a sensible answer or not" was more overtly insincere and hypocritical than I expect wei_dai to be. If I hadn't given Wei this benefit of the doubt I would not have answered straightforwardly as I did and instead had to evaluate how best to mitigate the damage from unwelcome social aggression.