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Wei_Dai comments on Mandatory Secret Identities - Less Wrong
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Comments (177)
Do you think, in retrospect, it might have been better to give an answer like "I doubt that there are enough people in reality who fit your description for there to be an established term for the category." instead of "fictional"? It seems like that would have gotten your point across more clearly and helped avoid a lot of the subsequent side-track into whether "fictional" is a sensible answer or not.
Absolutely not. Nsheppard's is perhaps the most salient comment in the entire thread, closely followed by genius's follow up. This site would be a worse place if it was not made. I would of course not have expressed my agreement with nsheppard if I had predicted that it would receive a hostile response but would most certainly have defended nsheppard if the 'non-sequitur' accusations were then directly leveled at him instead of me.
(Your answer is a good one too, and I would have liked to see that comment made in addition to the 'fictional' comment.)
I note that nsheppard's "fictional" answer remains at +5 at the time of this comment and this is despite it being subjected to a tantrum which can usually be expected to significantly lower the rating. This indicates that my continued endorsement of his reply is actually in line with consensus.
There are other things I would of course write differently in retrospect, and participants who I have learned to interact with differently (if at all) in the future---but the 'fictional' comment is most definitely not the place at which I would intervene to counterfactually change the past if I could.
If you'll pardon me while I reciprocate with a similar question, why did you think it was a good idea to ask me the quoted question? By my estimation even casually following my comments for a month would be enough to predict with significant confidence that that kind of reply to a rhetorical question is something that I would reflectively endorse myself making or upvote from others. Most people could probably predict that even just having read the context in this thread. Of course I am going to disagree.
The aforementioned entirely predictable disagreement doesn't mean that you can't assert your position but it does mean that if you ask a direct question then my possible responses are ignore or retort. (Or, of course, lie, obfuscate or fog but let's focus on the direct responses.) I know you don't like (or, I suppose, your past self didn't like) 'ignore' and replying with disagreement just amounts to extending the exact same pointless side-track that you wanted to avoid.
So I ask you, is the problem that you didn't think it through or that my preferences regarding how questions like that should be responded to are insufficiently transparent? And this is a surprisingly sincere question. One of the many posts that I'd like to write but only have the rudimentary notes prepared for actually is "On Rhetorical Questions and the Response Thereto" (although I think I'd come up with a better name). And yes, it would include a section endorsing the kind of response you suggest here, too.
It's the latter. In fact even after reading your comment I still don't understand why you think "fictional" is a good reply in addition to my suggestion. You said
But I don't understand why this is true. Can you explain more?
I guess this explains why you didn't explain more why you still endorse "fictional". Let me clarify: my preferences are that the original discussion didn't get side-tracked, but once we're already side-tracked, I don't think a shorter side-track is necessarily better than a longer one, if for example the longer one is more likely to resolve the disagreement in a way that would prevent future side-tracks like it.
I was hoping that either 1) once you considered my alternative answer and my reasons for why it's better, you would agree with me that it would have been a good idea to use that instead of "fictional", in which case we would be able to communicate better in the future and avoid similar side-tracks, or 2) you would disagree and explain why, in a way that makes me realize I've been having some false beliefs or behaving suboptimally.
I get the feeling from this that you don't like rhetorical questions, but I'm not sure if that's the case, or if it is, why. Do you prefer that I had phrased my comment like the following? (Or let me know if I should just wait for your post to explain this.)
I'm glad to hear this, I much prefer it to David's interpretation.
Perhaps, but it would be unwise. I have done far more explaining than is optimal already and my model of observed social behavior in this context is not one that predicts reason to change minds. ie. In a context where this kind of disengenuity is above -3 supplying reasons would be an error similar in kind to bringing a knife to a gun fight.
Note that this isn't to say you are too mind killed to communicate with, rather it is to say that systematic voting and replying based on already intrenched political affiliations would overwhelm any signal regarding the actual subject matter, leaving you an inaccurate perception of how the subject matter is perceived in general.
I don't mind them, they are appropriate from time to time. I am aware, however, that they are often given privileged status such that answering them directly in a way that doesn't support the implied argument is sometimes considered 'missing the point' rather than rejecting it. Rhetorical questions are a powerful dark arts technique and don't need additional support and encouragement when they fail.
Absolutely. Or, rather, if you had believed as David did that the answer to the question was pretty damn obviously "No" then your original comment would be a far more personal act of aggression than this one would have been. But I don't think this is because it was a rhetorical question but rather because it would be a form that is more personal, presumptive, condescending and disingenuous. The only general problem with 'rhetorical questions' that would be pertinent is that they are often just as socially effective at supporting bullshit as supporting coherent positions. (The 'bullshit' here refers to the countefactually-known-to-be-false assumption that I would agree with you if I reflected. It does not apply if either you were sincerely in doubt or you used the revised argument form).
I disagree. I think you probably have a bias in how you interpret voting patterns, and the situation is not as politicized as you think. However, I am more curious about what your reasons are than how others judge your reasons, so if you continue to worry about giving me an inaccurate perception of how the subject matter is perceived in general, please send me a PM with your reasons.
It seems to me that rhetorical questions are more of a dark arts technique when you're making a speech and can use them to lead your audience to a desired conclusion. In a debate or discussion on the other hand, it seems easy to counter a rhetorical question by laying out the implied argument and then pointing out whatever flaws might exist in it. I think I often use rhetorical questions for hedging:
which seems like a pretty reasonable use.
If a third-party observer's perspective helps: your preferences seemed sufficiently predictable to me that I'd tentatively understood Wei Dai's question as primarily a rhetorical one, intended to indirectly convey the suggestion that it would have been better to give such a response.
I was wary of making that suggestion because that would mean the whole "avoid a lot of the subsequent side-track into whether 'fictional' is a sensible answer or not" was more overtly insincere and hypocritical than I expect wei_dai to be. If I hadn't given Wei this benefit of the doubt I would not have answered straightforwardly as I did and instead had to evaluate how best to mitigate the damage from unwelcome social aggression.