SaidAchmiz comments on How I Ended Up Non-Ambitious - Less Wrong

113 Post author: Swimmer963 23 January 2012 11:50PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (237)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: pjeby 23 December 2012 05:05:01AM 1 point [-]

If I approve of people whose activities (I believe) constitute "moral decay" (i.e. who do things that I disapprove of), then that encourages such behavior.

Note that it's possible to approve of a person while still disapproving of a specific behavior - "that's disgusting" vs. "people who do that are disgusting". The latter lacks utility outside of a context where your signaling will actually affect the behavior.

The more other people approve of them, the more the behavior is encouraged. Moral decay results.

Note that failing to disapprove actually equals ignoring the behavior, not reinforcing it. Also note that disapproval (especially of the personal, all-or-nothing variety) is punishment, not negative reinforcement. Punishment is not a reliable way to extinguish a behavior, unless there are always punishers around.

Unfortunately, we are biased towards believing our punishment is important, and so we'll rationalize it on the basis that if we don't, then everything will fall apart and chaos will reign. In truth, this is just our instinct to punish non-punishers talking. (i.e., he who speaks in favor of leniency towards those caught doing X must want to do X himself... Get him!)

Comment author: SaidAchmiz 23 December 2012 09:01:22PM 1 point [-]

Note that failing to disapprove actually equals ignoring the behavior, not reinforcing it. Also note that disapproval (especially of the personal, all-or-nothing variety) is punishment, not negative reinforcement. Punishment is not a reliable way to extinguish a behavior, unless there are always punishers around.

Yes, we need to punish the behavior and encourage its opposite. Failing to do both of those things is still bad.

In any case "failing to disapprove" is a red herring. The sentence of yours to which I was responding, and my response, was about approving of people. That's encouragement.

I'm also not sure what it even means to "approve of a person" in some general sense while disapproving of their behavior. There isn't some essential core of a person that can be separated from what they do. That sort of view leads to "hate the sin, love the sinner" type arguments where I say that your homosexual behavior is horribly disgusting but I don't have anything against you as a person. (I'm not equating your point with that one, just giving an example where separating approval of a person's behavior from approval of a person leads to clear absurdity.)

To bring this back to a more concrete discussion of Swimmer963's comment — if being "ambitious", whatever that means, leads people to behave like those high-school classmates of hers, then that should be a strike against being ambitious. Where is the fallacy?

Comment author: pjeby 24 December 2012 09:56:29PM 5 points [-]

That sort of view leads to "hate the sin, love the sinner" type arguments where I say that your homosexual behavior is horribly disgusting but I don't have anything against you as a person. (I'm not equating your point with that one, just giving an example where separating approval of a person's behavior from approval of a person leads to clear absurdity.)

I don't see the absurdity, actually. Seems on par for me with, "I think your taste in [death metal, anchovies on pizza, toilet paper roll direction] is horribly disgusting, but I don't have anything against you as a person".

Or for that matter, "I think what you say is disgusting, but I defend your right to say it."

Of course, AFAICT, this actually has nothing to do with what we're discussing, which is the opposite sort of issue: where one is, say, inappropriately disgusted by sports because when you grew up the people who were into sports were mean to you, so that now you make excuses not to go to the gym without really knowing why.

To bring this back to a more concrete discussion of Swimmer963's comment — if being "ambitious", whatever that means, leads people to behave like those high-school classmates of hers, then that should be a strike against being ambitious. Where is the fallacy?

Your statement only makes sense if there is a natural reality-clustering around the term "ambitious" -- or any other term. One of the techniques I teach people to use in this sort of situation is to ask if there are any ambitious people who don't display those annoying qualities, to focus attention on counterexamples. The essential idea is to cleave your brain's concept clustering to better match the diversity that exists in reality.

Sadly, our brains don't often update on this sort of thing without an extra push from the outside. A lot of common personal development problems essentially consist of this sort of accidental agglomeration of concepts.

Think of the story of the neural network supposedly trained to spot camouflaged tanks, which had in fact only learned to distinguish between pictures taken at different times of day. (Because the pictures with tanks were all taken during a different part of the afternoon than the non-tank pictures.) In the same way, if something always goes together during our formative years (like being ambitious and being an asshole), our brains learn that "asshole" is part of what the word "ambitious" actually means.

Correcting (and equally important, detecting) that sort of mistaken learning is what mindhacking (or at least the sort I practice and preach) is all about. Hence the heuristic of always questioning feelings of moral indignation or superiority: they have a strong prior probability of being a source of motivated reasoning and confabulation.

To put it another way, any time you find yourself indignantly arguing for the value of moral disapproval, the prior probability that you are engaging in confabulation motivated by your existing feeling of disapproval is pretty astronomical, regardless of whether your reasoning is actually correct.

Comment author: MugaSofer 25 December 2012 02:35:40PM -1 points [-]

Think of the story of the neural network supposedly trained to spot camouflaged tanks, which had in fact only learned to distinguish between pictures taken at different times of day. (Because the pictures with tanks were all taken during a different part of the afternoon than the non-tank pictures.) In the same way, if something always goes together during our formative years (like being ambitious and being an asshole), our brains learn that "asshole" is part of what the word "ambitious" actually means.

That's a great example. I would have upvoted just for this.