Eugine_Nier comments on I've had it with those dark rumours about our culture rigorously suppressing opinions - Less Wrong

26 Post author: Multiheaded 25 January 2012 05:43PM

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Comment author: TimS 31 January 2012 08:14:05PM *  1 point [-]

That's a fair question. To be clear, my assertion was that society's response to rape would be "better" if we gave negative feedback to rape jokes, which would reduce their frequency.

  • I think it is pretty clear that the frequency of rape jokes has substantially decreased since the 1970s, caused substantially by negative feedback.
  • In that same time period, I think society's response to rape has significantly improved.

Concrete examples of recent changes:

  • In many American jurisdictions, rape was once legally defined to include an element of force. That is, proof of non-consent could only be shown by the woman's "utmost resistance." Nowadays, the legal definition has been changed to remove the force requirement or interpret it as satisfied by the force of penetration.
  • Spousal rape was once legally impossible or difficult to prove. Now, spousal rape is treated as legally similar to other kinds of rape.
  • Once, rape victims needed to worry that their dress or promiscuity would be used to discredit their testimony in court. Now, the rules of evidence have often been amended to restrict the admissibility of this kind of evidence.

At this point, I think the evidence shows a strong correlation between anti-rape-joke attitudes and society's responsiveness to rape. That's not proof of the causal mechanism I'm asserting (reducing rape jokes causes attitudes towards rape to change in the general population), but it is suggestive.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 02 February 2012 03:46:38AM 1 point [-]

Also if now social changes count as evidence, I'd like to point out the recent changes in attitudes towards adultery.

Comment author: TimS 02 February 2012 02:13:18PM 0 points [-]

I was writing this long post asking you to be more concrete, but I realized that this is not my true rejection. On reflection, I think you are right that society is now more tolerant of adultery (sex when one partner is married) and non-marital sex than at times in the past, although it's not clear to me that this has been a one-way ratchet in favor of libertine behavior - compare the 1950s to the 1920s (roaring twenties). Likewise, Victorian era prudishness may have been a reaction to the permissiveness of the Hanoveran Kings before Victoria.

(For convenience, I'm using "illicit sex" as a general term to include adultery and non-marital sex).

My real issue is as follows: Hays Code moralists (aka sex-moralists) argued that more revealing clothing encouraged illicit sex. That may be so, but different "revelations" of the female body might have different effects on the illicit sex rate. I suspect the move from one-piece swimwear to bikinis had a stronger effect than allowing the exposure of ankles and wrists. And sexual-moralists don't seem to recognize this difference of effect - for them, every change is the end of the world. Worse, they don't tend to care about the double standard (in dress and behavior) between men and women.

All of this makes me think that sexual-moralists have a vision of how the world should be, and are willing to say whatever is necessary to push the actual world in that direction. Forcefully asserting that revealing female clothing will lead to the end of civilization will cause (ceteris parabis) women to dress less revealingly. But asserting that when there's no reason to think it is true is not an empirical project.

I'm not saying feminists haven't done some similar things - politics mindkills us all, not just those who disagree with me. But that doesn't mean feminism as a whole is anti-empiricism, any more than assertions that "allowing same-sex marriage will lead to chaos" are proof that all sexual-moralists are anti-empiricism.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 03 February 2012 03:49:31AM 1 point [-]

for them, every change is the end of the world.

[citation please], as in I think your exaggerating their position.

any more than assertions that "allowing same-sex marriage will lead to chaos" are proof that all sexual-moralists are anti-empiricism.

The actual assertion was "allowing same-sex marriage will lead to the end of marriage", an assertion which I think is perfectly plausible (give it about a generation to work out).

Comment author: TimS 03 February 2012 04:07:57AM 0 points [-]

Not that it's worth much, but here.

Divorce is becoming more acceptable over time, but that significantly predates the rise of the gay marriage movement.