Nick_Tarleton comments on The Unfinished Mystery of the Shangri-La Diet - Less Wrong

22 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 10 April 2009 08:30PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (225)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: pjeby 11 April 2009 02:24:09PM 13 points [-]

Tried it. Didn't work. Welcome to the unfair universe.

Good thing you don't have that attitude about FAI.

Mind you, aerobic exercise does put me in better aerobic condition, sorta. It just doesn't have anything to do with weight loss.

Have you considered the possibility that you just did something wrong? Common knowledge says that you need to exercise for 20 minutes or more to do any fat burning, but I've read an interesting book that says aerobics don't actually improve your fitness or burn fat.

Specifically, the author claims that, yes, exercising for more than 20 minutes will cause you to burn fat because your sugar stores are exhausted. However, he says, this tells your body that it needs to keep fat around, since clearly you're doing things that need it. Thus, the long-term effect of long-duration aerobics is that you adapt to store fat more... which is why runners who stop running, quickly get fat.

What he suggests needs to happen instead is that you exercise in a way that rapidly consumes sugar, but doesn't dip into the fat stores, so that the adaptation response is to make the body lean towards storing food as sugar, and to convert stored fat to sugar.

His theory is that in the ancestral environment, we needed to do a lot of sprinting to catch things or avoid being caught, with relatively less long/slow exercise. (Also, that training for recovery after short bursts of exercises increases lung capacity and heart health more quickly.)

Anyway, I'm currently experimenting with one of his simpler "beginner" routines: 10 minutes, consisting of alternating one minute of anaerobic sprinting with one minute of slow walking recovery. I'm only in the first week, but my speed and ability to recover have increased a good bit, even though I've not done it every day this week. I'll have to see what effect it has over a longer term.

I just mention this to point out that there could easily be minor changes to exercise that could make big differences to one's results, and that "tried it, didn't work" isn't a helpful approach to investigating them. In my own case, the only part of my life that I wasn't overweight was the time where I didn't have a car, had to walk or bicycle everywhere, and had moderately long distances to go.

What I've observed since then, though, as I slowly drop the 100 pounds that I put on when I started working at home (got about 30lbs left to go), is that losing fat is a lot more about what I put into my body than what I take out.

This may or may not be true for you. What may be true, however, is that you're not considering this as a constraint-solving problem. Your ability to lose weight or put on muscle are going to be constrained by a wide variety of factors including what nutrition you're getting, how much water, how much sleep, what intensity of exercise at what heart rate... even frequency of meals. Hell, you might even be eating too little food, or the wrong food for your metabolism or pH. I've had to tweak ALL of these things in order to lose weight. How many have you tried tweaking?

There are tons of variables that could act as constraints on your ability to lose weight, and until you make sure they're all simultaneously satisfied, you're not going to get a result.

Simply labeling yourself "metabolically challenged" is not rational. How, specifically, are you challenged? What is the mechanism by which this challenge operates? Which nutritional theories and exercise theories have you tested? What variables have you measured and tracked?

Perhaps a crisis of belief would be appropriate here as well.

Comment author: Nick_Tarleton 11 April 2009 06:45:05PM 0 points [-]

I've read an interesting book that says aerobics don't actually improve your fitness or burn fat.

Title?

Comment author: glenra 12 April 2009 04:53:01AM 1 point [-]

Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes also claims aerobics doesn't work to lose weight and refers to a bunch of studies to that effect. Though he doesn't go so far as to deny there are cardiovascular benefits.

Comment author: Kiraly 15 April 2012 06:20:47PM 1 point [-]

Incorrect, at least from my experience. I lost ~30 pounds, a little more, when I was 16 and doing aerobics one summer. The only diet element I had was eating slightly less. Mind, it was an hour, sometimes an hour and half of intense great aerobics with no breather pause and I was sweating a great deal by the end of each session.

I did gain that weight back in less than a month, so fast that my classmates didn't even notice I had lost a lot of weight in the first place, so the end effect was that it didn't work, but the idea of aerobics not leading to weight loss at all is not true.

Comment author: [deleted] 15 April 2012 06:41:54PM *  4 points [-]

You cannot counterbalance the evidence behind a claim that "refers to a bunch of studies" by citing anecdotal evidence.

Comment author: wedrifid 15 April 2012 07:02:33PM 4 points [-]

You cannot counterbalance the evidence behind a claim that "refers to a bunch of studies" by citing anecdotal evidence.

You can most certainly give people a cause to actually look at the "referred to studies" to see what they actually say rather than third hand impressions given in a one sentence comment about a book. ie. To see whether the actual studies are incompatible with the prediction "If someone does intense cardio for one and a half hours (every day) AND actually ate less rather than more energy from food while maintaining this schedule they will probably lose weight".

As far as I know the "doesn't work" means something far more specific, practical and psychological that isn't particularly incompatible with the highly unnatural circumstances mentioned in Kiraly's experience. It is also something rather closely relevant to the "I did gain that weight back in less than a month" observation.

Comment author: khafra 26 September 2012 03:30:55PM 2 points [-]

.Incorrect, at least from my experience. I lost ~30 pounds, a little more, when I was 16 and doing aerobics one summer.

I did gain that weight back in less than a month

This is exactly what pjeby's description of the book you're calling "incorrect" suggested would happen.

Comment author: Desrtopa 15 April 2012 07:19:18PM *  0 points [-]

I took off about fifteen pounds in seven weeks with nothing but cardio, and dropped another twenty after that in a few more months, still with more cardio (it probably would have taken less if I hadn't had to recover from getting hit by a car in the middle of it,) and I was still losing weight at the time that I seriously altered my workout regimen, because I'd lost too much weight. I put weight back on afterwards, but it was almost all muscle, so that people actually commented that I was looking leaner after I put twenty back on than before I gained the weight (some people even thought I was losing weight while I was gaining it.) I still weigh less today than when I started working out, and have more muscle as well.

On the other hand, I have a predisposition to eating disorders (suffered anorexia as a kid,) and my approach to exercise for someone who was not a competitive athlete at the time could fairly be described as fanatical, so it's reasonable to expect that most people who start working out with the intention of taking weight off would not achieve similar results.

Comment author: pjeby 11 April 2009 09:14:00PM 0 points [-]

Title?

PACE: Rediscover Your Native Fitness, by Al Sears, MD.

Comment author: Nick_Tarleton 11 April 2009 09:18:06PM 0 points [-]

Thanks.