= 27d567bc2d48d9f40e9ccc20ea370b15)
clarissethorn comments on Is masochism necessary? - Less Wrong
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
= 783df68a0f980790206b9ea87794c5b6)
Loading…= b715d02e85f7b3b4ae65ca3d3e450868)
Subscribe to RSS Feed
Powered by Reddit
= f037147d6e6c911a85753b9abdedda8d)
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (143)
That's an issue to take up with Socrates. We examine stuff.
You don't know this site very well. We would discuss those questions if they seemed relevant. An important category of discourse here is "examining what makes X people do Y" when Y runs counter to their other goals, as some of the masochism examples seem to do.
Did you even click the "Followup to" link to see what the original context was for this discussion? People intentionally losing, people intentionally seeking "negative" emotional stimuli. Can you see how this might reasonably connect to masochism in particular, and not sexuality in general?
:::::::::: You don't know this site very well. We would discuss those questions if they seemed relevant. ::::::::::
Good!
I just think it's important for people who have these conversations to consider the point that "what's relevant" or "what's worthy of examination" is often, itself, socially constructed.
:::::::::: Can you see how this might reasonably connect to masochism in particular, and not sexuality in general? ::::::::::
Yes. But my concern is not masochism in general. I am responding to the ways in which sexual masochism has been framed in this discussion.
Sexual masochism is relevant -- it was brought up in the original post. I recognize that my comments may not directly address the main questions of the original post. But what I am hoping is that my comments shed some light on some aspects of the post, and encourage the writers here to consider what biases they are bringing to those aspects.
By the way, if you want to quote stuff, you can do it with a > at the beginning of the line.
Thanks!
Point taken. In this case, I thought the relevance was pretty clearly motivated by earlier discussion.
It was "framed" by one pretty neutral statement, making the true observation that many people consider it a "sexual perversion". I object to your taking a statement like that as a cue to come "educate" the speaker on how judgmental he's being. He quite simply did not present a judgmental viewpoint. He made reference to a judgmental viewpoint. You're the one inferring some kind of endorsement from it.
Presentation is endorsement, unless it's framed with disclaimers.
Let's return to the LGBTQ example. Consider the following potential sentences:
"Many people think of homosexuality as a sexual perversion. But there are ordinary, socially-accepted behaviors that seem partly homoerotic to me:"
Would you call that a neutral statement? Would you claim so passionately that it revealed no bias on the part of the person who said it?
Many people thought Hitler was a great leader.
Yes.
I think you intended it to look like some sort of anti-gay rhetoric (didn't you?) so it's odd that it could be read as a pro-homosexual statement, i.e.:
"Many think homosexuality is a sexual perversion, but as I shall show, homoeroticism is perfectly ordinary and socially accepted in many arenas."
It's odd that nobody has defended Phil with the observation that the description of masochism as a possible sexual perversion was immediately followed by the word "but".
Update: This post no longer makes sense because the top-level post has been edited. :)
I want to get across the point that, if it's true that sexual masochism and other behaviors have some underlying pleasure mechanism in common, then it's remarkable that people demonize sexual masochism yet have no guilt about riding rollercoasters. I can't do that without saying something like "Many people think masochism is evil." There's no way to get my idea across without using negative terms.
(The thought just occurred to me as I wrote this: Maybe the puritans (the stereotypical puritans, as opposed to the real ones, whom I am less familiar with) were just being consistent! Seeing sexual pleasure as immoral should lead to seeing dancing, card-playing, and many other things as immoral.)
If I had just written
"There are ordinary, socially-accepted behaviors that seem partly masochistic to me",
that would be less neutral, as it would imply that I myself believed masochism was wrong.
I changed it. I think it's weaker and less interesting this way, but it's not in my advantage to repell people who have the expertise necessary for this conversation.
I don't think it reveals bias, so much as a lack of diplomacy.
Hmm. I would object, but empirical evidence from other threads is compatible with the "lack of diplomacy" theory.
Sometimes rationalism is a bitch.
(Wait, am I doing it again?)
Some are Against Disclaimers: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/against-disclai.html