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PhilGoetz comments on Is masochism necessary? - Less Wrong
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Right, but it's a negative emotional experience for me to open an article that describes me as a sexual pervert something like a chronic loser, don't you think?
Taking care to be polite to each other is not some foolish ritual of mundanes; it serves a real purpose in facilitating discussion. It isn't always the right thing, but it's the right side to err on.
By and large people take notable care over their words here in a variety of ways, and it makes the site a better place.
I'd like one of the many people criticizing how I wrote the second sentence to suggest a better way to write it, that would still point out the contrast between social attitudes towards sexual masochism, and social attitudes towards the other things on the list. <EDIT> Ciphergoth did this. </EDIT>
ciphergoth, there were a lot of other things on the list besides Bruce. I don't think it's fair to you pick out the one bad thing from a long list of good things, and then complain about that one.
I took notable care; yet it wasn't good enough for you.
I've said much more inflammatory things to other people that didn't get jumped on by anybody. I've said much harsher things to EY. I've repeatedly said things about classical music that drive komponisto up the wall. Should I refrain from criticizing Schoenberg because it upsets him?
<EDIT> These are bad examples. Yes, I should have been more polite in all those cases. </EDIT>
I don't see the difference. I didn't even say anything bad about masochism. I wrote a post saying that maybe masochism is an essential part of everyone's ordinary, healthy human nature; and you were still offended by it.
Well, a matter of fact...
There's a difference between criticism and taking potshots. If you wanted to write a post explaining in detail why you think Schoenberg's music is flawed, that might be one thing (provided it was on-topic). By contrast, merely stating a negative opinion (repeatedly, as you note) in an authoritative tone that suggests it is akin to a widely-accepted fact (particularly when you have no authority in the matter), after you have already been called on it, is just a form of aggressive behavior that I don't think should be welcomed.
It might be that Schoenberg is good music to people with specialized musical training. I have said that his music is bad, but I don't have high confidence that it is "bad" in an absolute, moral realist sense.
I do have high confidence that the relentless pursuit of novelty rather than quality caused most arts to become inaccessible to most people around the turn of the 20th century. And I regard that as bad. The elite forgot that they need us. We, the unwashed, untrained masses, provide the money to build the concert halls and the universities that the elite sit in; and instead of remembering their obligation to us, they take our money and use it to get their special training and then sit in their ivory towers and look down their noses at us.
So we abandoned them; and their art shriveled without us. Everybody defected. Game over.
Physics is so specialized that ordinary people can't understand it, but they can still use it. Music, on the other hand, once moved beyond the point where we ordinary people can appreciate it, is useless to us.
What makes you so confident that the pursuit of "quality" was being abandoned? The fact that you don't find it appealing?
Mere novelty could have been accomplished by much cheaper means than those employed by composers in the "Schoenbergian" tradition, whose music tends to be very precisely and delicately constructed. Contrast, for example, Milton Babbitt (whose works are often so intricate that they take me several hearings to "get") with John Cage (who was capable of "composing" the most trivial case of a piece of music -- one with no sound at all). Cage is arguably an example of the extreme case of pure novelty-seeking (though I think people are too hard on him -- 4'33'' is not his only work); but this sort of thing is completely divorced from what the mainstream of "post-tonal" composers were going for.
Where does this attitude come from? There is no conspiracy going on. Nobody is forcing you to listen to Schoenberg, or --still less -- preventing you from listening to Mozart. The public funding of advanced music in the U.S. is negligible to nonexistent. I defy you to explain how the existence of a few people (of whose existence you are barely even aware) pursuing this esoteric line of work could possibily result in negative utility for you.
What makes you so sure? What about cosmology, or high-energy physics? String theory? Pure mathematics?
The point here is that you want to have the sort of culture where advanced creative achievement -- formidabilty, awesomeness -- in all domains is encouraged and rewarded, not suppressed. (Tsyoku Naritai!) A culture that would place limitations on the permissible complexity of musical thought is not one in which we should want to live.
(And beware the treacherous weapon of populism; it's easy enough when you think you're on the side of the masses -- but the time may come when they show up at your own gates with their torches and pitchforks...)
Some people (well, komponisto at least) may get a chuckle out of hearing that when I read this I had a little twitch in my brain that corrected it to "drive komponiston up the wall".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto#Grammar