saturn comments on People who "don't rationalize"? [Help Rationality Group figure it out] - Less Wrong

12 Post author: Mercurial 02 March 2012 11:38PM

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Comment author: AnnaSalamon 03 March 2012 08:30:24AM 9 points [-]

In response to the folk suggesting that our questions were just unclear, etc.:

I notice rationalization all the time too (in myself and in others); but there totally seem to be people who don't ever notice it in themselves. Lots of them. Including both folks who seem never to have trained in rationality-type-stuff at all, and folks who have. I ignored my first counter-example, and my second, but not my third and forth; especially after the fourth counter-example kindly allowed us to cross-examine them for some hours, to go try accosting strangers with weird questions and see if they noticed themself rationalizing while approaching said strangers, etc.

Mercurial, and Eliezer, both suggested an analogy to the "thinking in words" vs "thinking in images" thing; some do one and others do another, and many tend to assume that everyone must experience life that way. We all updated toward thinking that there is some actual thing going on here -- something we were initially not modeling.

But, I'm still confused about:

  1. Whether we're just still missing something obvious anyhow. Maybe our fourth counter-example, who consented to answering gobs of questions and trying experiments for us, was a fluke? (Try asking people yourself, please; don't just say that it must be experimental error because you don't work that way)
  2. Whether they don't rationalize, or just don't notice themselves rationalizing. (Fourth datapoint seemed to maybe actually never make up reasons for choices; don't have data on the others really).
  3. What exactly the boundaries are on "rationalizing" -- what exactly it is, that a sizable portion of the folks we've talked to never notices themselves doing.
Comment author: saturn 03 March 2012 10:09:00AM 6 points [-]

After reading the comments here I think I might be a person who doesn't rationalize, or my tendency to do so is well below the norm. I previously thought the Litany of Tarski was about defeating ugh fields; I do experience those. I'm willing to answer questions about it, if that would help.

Comment author: AnnaSalamon 05 March 2012 08:43:23PM *  2 points [-]

Thanks! Could you tell me about ugh fields you've experienced, and about any instances of selective search, fake justification, etc. that you can call to mind?

Also, what modality do you usually think in -- words, images, ... ?

Also, what do you do when you e.g. desire a cookie, but have previously decided to reduce cookie-consumption?

Comment author: saturn 05 March 2012 11:54:25PM 3 points [-]

Could you tell me about ugh fields you've experienced, and about any instances of selective search, fake justification, etc. that you can call to mind?

If a thought with unpleasant implications comes up, I'm tempted to quickly switch to a completely different, more pleasant topic. Usually this happens in the context of putting off some unpleasant task, but I could imagine it also happening if I believed in God or had some other highly cherished belief. I can't think of any beliefs that I actually feel that strongly about, though.

I do sometimes come up with plausible excuses or fake justifications if I'm doing something that someone might disapprove of, in case they confront me about it. I don't remember ever doing that for my own benefit. I can't remember doing a selective search either, but of course it's possible I do it without being aware of it.

I just thought of another thing that might be relevant- I find moralizing less appealing than seems to be typical.

Also, what modality do you usually think in -- words, images, ... ?

I'm not sure how to describe it. Sort of like wordless analogies or relations between concepts, usually combined with some words and images. But also sometimes words or images by themselves.

Also, what do you do when you e.g. desire a cookie, but have previously decided to reduce cookie-consumption?

Distract myself by focusing on something else. If my thoughts keep coming back to eating cookies, I might try imagining something disgusting like eating a cookie with maggots in it.

Comment author: amcknight 07 March 2012 01:08:24AM 1 point [-]

Use it or lose it? Speculation:
Keeping your previous beliefs consistent by rationalizing and distracting yourself are both ways to avoid changing your mind or to avoid thinking about unpleasant things. Maybe most people start with both strategies and the one they have success with develops more than the other. If you are really successful at distracting yourself, maybe rationalization skills never really develop to their full irrational potential.