ChrisHallquist comments on How to Fix Science - Less Wrong

50 Post author: lukeprog 07 March 2012 02:51AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (141)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: ChrisHallquist 04 March 2012 01:33:18AM *  7 points [-]

What David_G said. Global warming is a scientific issue. Maybe "what we lack is the will to change things" is the right analysis of the policy problems, but among climate change experts there's a whole lot more consensus about global warming than there is among AI researchers about the Singularity. "You can't say controversial things about global warming, but can say even more controversial things about AI" is a rule that makes about as much sense as "teach the controversy" about evolution.

Comment author: timtyler 05 March 2012 04:34:26PM 6 points [-]

Please don't insert gratuitous politics into LessWrong posts.

Global warming is a scientific issue.

...and what to do about it is a political issue.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 04 March 2012 03:10:26AM 7 points [-]

Global warming is a scientific issue.

It's also a political issue, to a much greater extent than the possibility and nature of a technological singularity.

Comment author: ChrisHallquist 04 March 2012 03:37:10AM 9 points [-]

Evolution is also a political issue. Shall we now refrain from talking about evolution, or mentioning what widespread refusal to accept evolution, up to the point of there being a strong movement to undermine the teaching of evolution in US schools, says about human rationality?

I get that it can be especially hard to think rationally about politics. And I agree with what Eliezer has written about government policy being complex and almost always involving some trade-offs, so that we should be careful about thinking there's an obvious "rationalist view" on policy questions.

However, a ban on discussing issues that happen to be politicized is idiotic, because it puts us at the mercy of contingent facts about what forms of irrationality happen to be prevalent in political discussion at this time. Evolution is a prime example of this. Also, if the singularity became a political issue, would we ban discussion of that from LessWrong?

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 05 March 2012 09:49:11AM *  11 points [-]

We should not insert political issues which are not relevant to the topic, because the more political issues one brings to the discussion, the less rational it becomes. It would be most safe to discuss all issues separately, but sometimes is it not possible, e.g. when the topic being discussed relies heavily on evolution.

One part of trying to be rational is to accept that people are not rational, and act accordingly. For every political topic there is a number of people whose minds will turn off if they read something they disagree with. It does not mean we should be quiet on the topic, but we should not insert it where it is not relevant.

Explaining why X is true, in a separate article, is correct approach. Saying or suggesting something like "by the way, people who don't think X is true are wrong" in an unrelated topic, is wrong approach. Why is it so? In the first example you expect your proof of X to be discussed in the comments, because it is the issue. In the second example, discussions about X in comments are off-topic. Asserting X in a place where discussion of X is unwelcome, is a kind of Dark Arts; we should avoid it even if we think X is true.

Comment author: loup-vaillant 07 March 2012 05:05:52PM 6 points [-]

This post is mostly directed at newbies, which aren't supposed to be trained in trying to keep their brain from shutting down whenever the "politics" pattern matcher goes off.

In other words, it could cause some readers to stop reading before they get to the gist of the post. Even at Hacker News, I sometimes see "I stopped reading at this point" posts.

Also, I see zero benefit from mentioning global warming specifically in this post. Even a slight drawback outweigh zero benefit.

Comment author: ChrisHallquist 08 March 2012 09:13:07AM -2 points [-]

Oh dear... I admit I hadn't thought of the folks who will literally stop reading when they hit a political opinion they don't like. Yeah, I've encountered them. Though I think they have bigger problems than not knowing how to fix science, and don't think mentioning AGW did zero for this post.

Comment author: steven0461 04 March 2012 05:07:23AM 11 points [-]

The topic of evolution, unlike the topic of climate change, is entangled with human psychology, AI, and many other important topics; not discussing it would be highly costly. Moreover, if anyone on LessWrong disagrees with evolution, it's probably along Newsomian eccentric lines, not along tribal political lines. Also, lukeprog's comments on the subject made implicit claims about the policy implications of the science, not just about the science itself, which in turn is less clear-cut than the scientific case against a hypothesis requiring a supernatural agent, though for God's sake please nobody start arguing about exactly how clear-cut.

As a matter of basic netiquette, please use words like "mistaken" or "harmful" instead of "idiotic" to describe views you disagree with.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 04 March 2012 03:53:31AM 4 points [-]

(I don't necessarily disagree with your points, I was simply making a relevant factual claim; yet you seem to have unhesitatingly interpreted my factual claim as automatically implying all sorts of things about what policies I would or would not endorse. Hm...)

Comment author: ChrisHallquist 04 March 2012 04:09:25AM 0 points [-]

I didn't interpret it as anything about what gov. policies you'd endorse. I did infer you agreed with Steven's comment. But anyway, my first comment may not have been clear enough, and I think the second comment should be a useful explication of the first one.

(Actually, I meant to type "Maybe... isn't the right analysis..." or "Maybe... is the wrong analysis..." That was intended as acknowledgement of the reasons to be cautious about talking policy. But I botched that part. Oops.)

Comment author: Will_Newsome 04 March 2012 04:13:51AM 5 points [-]

I didn't interpret it as anything about what gov. policies you'd endorse

By "policies" I meant "norms of discourse on Less Wrong". I don't have any strong opinions about them; I don't unhesitatingly agree with Steven's opinion. Anyway I'm glad this thread didn't end up in needless animosity; I'm worried that discussing discussing global warming, or more generally discussing what should be discussed, might be more heated than discussing global warming itself.

Comment author: ChrisHallquist 04 March 2012 04:36:51AM -2 points [-]

Yeah. I thought of making another thread for this issue.

Comment author: thomblake 06 March 2012 11:23:41PM 1 point [-]

The point of is that one shouldn't use politically-charged examples when they're not on-topic. This is exactly that case. The article is not about global warming, so it should not make mention of global warming, because that topic makes some people go insane.

This does not mean that there cannot be a post about global warming (to the extent that it's on-topic for the site).