Eliezer_Yudkowsky comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 10 - Less Wrong

11 Post author: Oscar_Cunningham 07 March 2012 04:46PM

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Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 09 March 2012 07:53:17AM *  6 points [-]

LATIN REQUEST: I need a spell that Dumbledore uses to summon the Sorting Hat. So far, Google Translate on "Attend, Sorter!" got me "Adtendite Ordinarium!" but I'll take other appropriate phrases if they've got better translations.

Comment author: ahel 10 March 2012 01:44:34PM *  30 points [-]

Premise: I've studied latin for about 5 years, so I'm not going to use gTranslate for Latin :) my dictionary sounds better for this scope.


  • Verb:

The verb prodeo [pro-eo] is the best I could think.

  • the particle pro- means something like in front of, even between (me) and something, or near (me): this last one is peculiar and happens only sometimes.

  • eo is the most common and even one of the ancient verbs (that's why is defective/irregular) that means simply go.

So when Cicero (Br. 39) said :

prodire in lucem

he probably meant something like

come out from dark in the light.

Other times is used, like in Caesar (Bg):

in proelium prodire

that should sound like

come out and go to the battle.

OT:
(If you need for other occasion for a "incantation" in a more militar situation , a good one could be subject in ablative case+ proelium proditu (prò-e-li-um prò-di-tu), but that's another topic :) )

Even flowers prodent and in a figurative way, even

lacrimae de gaudio prodeunt

(Apuleio)

tears of joy appeared/came out of (him)

but this sense doesn't matter that much for our problem, i guess.


  • Subject:

Since you don't use "Hat" for the Sorting Hat, but it seems to me that you want to stress the fact that this "entity" is that important because is a Sorter I would guess

Deligitor

would be the best.

Also Eligitor would be nice there is a subtle difference: the last one means "the one who choose what he prefears". Deligo[de-lego -> de-eligo] means choose what (or who) is more apt to a peculiar aim.

A Cicero's quote:

ex civitate in senatum delecti

meant something like

choosen among the cives/citizens to form the senate(to be senators)

Deligitor is the noun formed by the verb, means "who choose, who looks for the fittest men (or stuff) for a task and choose them for that task"


  • The spell: JKR spells are really more naive, but that's not the point: they are not meant to be real Latin, but they are meant to sound like "Ancient powerful spell with complicated and forgotten words", imho.

  • The best grammatical looking phrase would be:

Deligitor prodi

that means "Chooser, be present"

because the verb is in the imperative mode, second person singular: prod-i. But that doesn't sound that good, imho.

A more free construction could be

Deligitor prode

That literally means "(the)Chooser has come to be present here."

and could be quite nice (not too far from Latin, not too boring for a fan-fic).

Or dozen of combination of this ones: deligit[or;-us,-um] prod[i,it,es,

oh! that could be nice also:

deligitor prodeas

is exhortative(or exhorting, i don't know) conjunctive, that simply means:

please, do this or would you mind doing this or it could be perfect/awesome if you bother to do this

that would sound like Chooser, please come here asap , or Sorting hat, come here since we need you


I'll stop here, waiting for some feedback, because otherwise my mind would be lost in this long trip.

Comment author: fezziwig 14 March 2012 06:28:06PM 2 points [-]

I had a lot of fun reading this post.

'Deligitor prodi' was my favorite. Not sure what you didn't like about it, but the longword-shortword construction gives it a nice imperative feel, and I mildly prefer 'prodi' to 'prode'.

Comment author: TobyBartels 15 March 2012 07:39:19PM 0 points [-]

Upvoted for ‘deligitor prodeas’.

Comment author: HonoreDB 10 March 2012 06:27:40AM 12 points [-]

Pervenit Judex translates to "Here Comes the Judge".

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 10 March 2012 06:29:13AM 8 points [-]

...that is oddly appropriate.

Comment author: Locke 09 March 2012 04:06:45PM 6 points [-]

What's wrong with "Accio Sorting Hat"?

Comment author: faul_sname 09 March 2012 11:53:39PM 0 points [-]

Accio Ordinarium?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 10 March 2012 12:29:16AM 4 points [-]

This is a special spell, not Accio.

Comment author: Origin 21 March 2012 09:19:43PM -2 points [-]

Wait, you mean you wrote so condescendingly about JKRs use of fake Latin while you don't know any Latin yourself? That's disappointing.

That aside, shouldn't you contact someone who actually does speak Latin to think up some spells for you from the ground up instead of sort of reverse-engineering them from English? Because that's exactly what Rowling did and look how that worked out...

Plus, if you do ever need to translate Latin, screw Google, Whitaker is your best friend. http://archives.nd.edu/words.html

Comment author: Whit3Noise 09 March 2012 06:55:08PM *  0 points [-]

pileum dictionis, affluere!

It would make Vergilius turn over in his grave, but it roughly means "(felt)hat (of the) talking, flow (to me) (i.e. appear)"

took the liberty to base it on the german translation of the sorting hat, which is "talking hat"

Edit: Adtendite Ordinarium means something like "mind the order". google really sucks at latin ;)

Comment author: ahel 10 March 2012 12:30:15PM *  2 points [-]

fluo and its derived verbs (like ad-fluo -> affluo) refer mainly to a liquid that flows. I don't think is the more appropriate. Edit: also pileus is a different hat: it is the one used by ex-slaves to mark their acquired freedom. It was high and conic, only made by wool, with no brim. (I know they are nitpicking but maybe they could improve the book and could help sound more professional)

Comment author: Whit3Noise 11 March 2012 04:01:22PM *  1 point [-]

The original reference to liquid is of course correct, e.g. ibi Isara Rhodanusque amnes ... confluunt in unum - where the rivers Rhodanus and Isere flow together [merge], but it can also be used figuratively, for example for crowds of people "flowing" together: undique ad hoc spectaculum confluere. In the context of calling the hat, I was thinking of "flow of magic" mainly to have a more nicely sounding phrase.

I agree that pileus is not a good choice, because it is actually dome-shaped and the basis for the pileolus that is worn by roman-catholic dignitarys, but then the Romans never had the concept of a pointy wizards hat. Also it was not technically the sign of an ex-slave - it might gained recognition, because the were allowed to wear the pileus - but usually worn by fishermen and workmen.

Anyway, when I realized that Eliezer is after a phrase that emphasizes the deciding/choosing trait of the hat, I remembered a description of a football (soccer) game in latin, and the term it used to describe the referee, so here's my new proposition:

disceptator, accede!

the one who decides/arbitrates, step up / step here! (imperative form)

or one could also use

disceptator, appare!

which again is the imperative of apparere - appear/show yourself

Edit: You might have confused the pileus with the phrygian cap, which is sort of pointy and looks like a smurf cap. Funny factoid, the french revolutioners mixed it up as well and chose the phrygian as a symbol of liberty.