gwern comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 10 - Less Wrong

11 Post author: Oscar_Cunningham 07 March 2012 04:46PM

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Comment author: pedanterrific 13 March 2012 07:17:18PM 2 points [-]

(Actually, I would expect that to be one of the first things Voldemort modified about himself, if it's at all possible.)

I meant more the problems it presents for intimidation value, but I guess if you've Marked your followers to ensure loyalty and/or obedience regardless, it's just a matter of not spending a lot of time in the public eye, which he'd be doing anyway. It's still pretty undignified, but that doesn't seem to bother Quirrell overmuch, so...

The real question, which I don't believe the duel with Bahry or the Massacre of the Bullies answers, is whether Quirrell could stand up to Dumbledore. If he couldn't - even if he just had significantly less endurance - that would make it pretty hard to claim the mantle of Voldemort.

Comment author: gwern 13 March 2012 07:50:18PM 1 point [-]

Even in canon, Voldemort rarely goes up against Dumbledore directly. They rarely ever meet after he graduates. IIRC, it's something like he applies for 1) Defense against the Dark arts & is rejected; 2) hides from Dumbledore on Quirrel's head (indefinite number of encounters); 3) fights Dumbledore in the Ministry to a draw; and that's about it.

Comment author: glumph 14 March 2012 12:44:20AM 6 points [-]

At the beginning of Chapter 62, though, we learn that McGonagall has faced Voldemort four times:

"She had encountered the Dark Lord four times and survived each one, three times with Albus to shield her and once with Moody at her side."

This makes it likely that Dumbledore has faced Voldemort on other occasions without her.

Comment author: gwern 14 March 2012 12:51:45AM 2 points [-]

Another MoR divergence, perhaps; nothing in canon comes to mind.

Comment author: pedanterrific 13 March 2012 08:05:09PM 3 points [-]

So in all that long period of open war, during which Lily & James Potter and Alice & Frank Longbottom both fought Voldemort and survived three times each, the strongest Light wizard in Britain never crossed wands with his foe?

Comment author: gwern 13 March 2012 08:15:13PM 2 points [-]

Sure. We are told Voldemort feared Dumbledore, are we not? Does a chess player immediately send out his queen to duel the other player's queen? And is this not exactly what happened with the previous Dark Lord - were we not explicitly told in canon that Dumbledore only encountered Grindelwald at their final clash and they never met between that and the death of his sister?

Comment author: pedanterrific 13 March 2012 08:34:35PM 3 points [-]

We are told Voldemort feared Dumbledore, are we not?

Well, were we, though? What chapter was that in? Or are we discussing canon now? I admit I'm somewhat confused.

were we not explicitly told in canon that Dumbledore only encountered Grindelwald at their final clash and they never met between that and the death of his sister?

Yes, but that was due to Dumbledore's rather cowardly dithering. The situation with Voldemort is rather different.

If your idea is correct, I would expect there were a few well-publicized instances of Dumbledore interrupting a Death Eater raid in a flash of phoenix fire, sending Voldemort running with his tail between his legs. That... doesn't really sound like MoRdemort, does it?

Comment author: gwern 13 March 2012 08:54:57PM 2 points [-]

Or are we discussing canon now?

Canon. MoR introduces extra difficulties like the implied Nazi blood-sacrifice empowering of Grindelwald.

I don't know what to make of MoRdemort. If I did, I think a fair number of obscurities or mysteries would snap into place.

Comment author: Eneasz 14 March 2012 07:51:35PM *  0 points [-]

I'm pretty sure MoRdemort (pre-Quirrell-meld) is meant to be very much like canon!Voldemort - nasty, ruthless, very magically powerful, in possession of exactly one good idea (the dark mark), and as intelligent as Rowling could write him (not an insult to Rowling). When asked to outwit a dark lord (in chapter 39, I believe?) Harry thinks that Voldemort wouldn't be much of a challenge, but Quirrell would be another matter entirely.

As Dumbledore says, Voldemort was never Dumbledore's destined foe. But he wasn't Harry's destined foe either. He had to be shattered by Dumbledore so he could transmute into Quirrellmort, who is Harry's destined foe. So Voldemort is an intermediate step, and obviously not as smart/dangerous as his final incarnation as Quirrellmort.

Comment author: pedanterrific 14 March 2012 08:42:05PM 7 points [-]

Harry thinks that Voldemort wouldn't be much of a challenge, but Quirrell would be another matter entirely.

Doubtless Harry based that belief on his extensive experience with Voldemort. Dumbledore's opinion, on the other hand:

"Aye, it is he," Albus said. "Azkaban has endured impenetrable for ages, only to fall to an ordinary Animagus potion. It is too clever and too impossible, which was ever Voldemort's signature since the days he was known as Tom Riddle. Anyone who wished to forge that signature must needs be as cunning as Voldemort himself to do so. And there is no one else in the world who would accidentally overestimate my wit, and leave me a message I cannot understand at all."

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