Swimmer963 comments on Rationally Irrational - Less Wrong

-11 Post author: HungryTurtle 07 March 2012 07:21PM

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Comment author: Swimmer963 09 March 2012 09:31:52PM 5 points [-]

Humans are irrational by nature; humans are also social by nature.

One: what is your evidence that humans are "irrational by nature", and how do you define this irrationality.

Two: I've found that since I started reading LW and trying to put some of its concepts into practice, my ability to handle social situations has actually improved. I am now much better at figuring out what people really want and what I really want, and then finding a way to get both without getting derailed by which options "feel high-status". The specific LW rationality toolkit, at least for me, has been VERY helpful in improving both my individual psychological health and my "social health."

Comment author: faul_sname 09 March 2012 10:16:21PM 4 points [-]

One: I think Lukeprog says it pretty well here:

“Oh my God,” you think. “It’s not that I have a rational little homunculus inside that is being ‘corrupted’ by all these evolved heuristics and biases layered over it. No, the data are saying that the software program that is me just is heuristics and biases. I just am this kluge of evolved cognitive modules and algorithmic shortcuts. I’m not an agent designed to have correct beliefs and pursue explicit goals; I’m a crazy robot built as a vehicle for propagating genes without spending too much energy on expensive thinking neurons.”

Two: Good point. Social goals and nonsocial goals are only rarely at odds with one another, so this may not be a particularly fruitful line of thought. Still, it is possible that the idea of rational "irrationality" is neglected here.

Comment author: thomblake 10 April 2012 06:21:42PM 1 point [-]

Social goals and nonsocial goals are only rarely at odds with one another

This seems implausible on the face of it, as goals in general tend to conflict. Especially to the extent that resources are fungible.

Comment author: Swimmer963 09 March 2012 10:20:22PM 1 point [-]

I agree with you on Lukeprog's description being a good one. I'm curious about whether HungryTurtle agrees with this description, too, or whether he's using a more specific sense of "irrational."

Comment author: HungryTurtle 06 April 2012 05:31:36PM 0 points [-]

Social goals and nonsocial goals are only rarely at odds with one another

hahah than why is smoking cool for many people? Why is binge drinking a sign of status in American colleges? Why do we pull all nighters and damage our health for the pursuit of the perfect paper, party, or performance.

Social goals are a large portion of the time at odds with individual health goals.

Comment author: faul_sname 06 April 2012 08:05:43PM 0 points [-]

I'm probably generalizing too much from my own experience, which is social pressure to get educated and practice other forms of self-improvement. I've never actually seen anyone who considers binge drinking a good thing, so I had just assumed that was the media blowing a few isolated cases out of proportion. I could easily be wrong though.

Comment author: HungryTurtle 09 March 2012 11:27:41PM *  -2 points [-]

One: what is your evidence that humans are "irrational by nature", and how do you define this irrationality.

Do you think humans can avoid interpreting the world symbolically? I do not. The human body, the human brain is hardwired to create symbols. Symbols are irrational. If symbols are irrational, and humans are unable to escape symbols, then humans are fundamentally irrational. That said, I should have added to my above statement that humans are also rational by nature.

Comment author: [deleted] 09 March 2012 11:55:09PM 4 points [-]

humans are also rational by nature.

Humans are irrational by nature

Why isn't this just a contradiction? In virtue of what are these two sentences compatible?

Comment author: Gastogh 11 March 2012 07:30:34AM 0 points [-]

I think they're compatible in that the inaccurate phrasing of the original statement doesn't reflect the valid idea behind it. Yobi is right: it's not a clean split into black and white, though the original statement reads like it is. I think it would've been better phrased as, "There are rational sides to humans. There are also irrational sides to humans." The current phrasing suggests the simultaneous presence of two binary states, which would be a contradiction.

Comment author: Swimmer963 10 March 2012 11:13:05PM 1 point [-]

Symbols are irrational. If symbols are irrational, and humans are unable to escape symbols, then humans are fundamentally irrational.

In what sense do you mean that symbols are irrational? Is it because they only imperfectly represent the world that is "really out there?" Is there a better option for humans/hypothetical other-minds to use instead of symbols?

Comment author: HungryTurtle 06 April 2012 05:26:11PM -1 points [-]

Symbols by definition are analogies to reality. Analogies are not rationally based, they are rhetorically based. Rhetoric is by no means rational in the sense that this community uses the word. Therefore language is by definition irrational.

Is there a better option for humans/hypothetical other-minds to use instead of symbols?

No, that is my point. Humans have no other way to relate to reality. The idea of a better option is a fiction of essentialist philosophy.