Swimmer963 comments on Rationally Irrational - Less Wrong

-11 Post author: HungryTurtle 07 March 2012 07:21PM

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Comment author: Swimmer963 10 April 2012 08:43:07PM 0 points [-]

When you see an oak tree and when you think about an oak tree it triggers the same series of neural impulses in your brain. Athletes visualize their actions before doing them, and this provides real benefits to achieving those actions. For humans, there is never any "physical oak leaf" there is only ever constructs.

Okay I think I understand what you're trying to say. So let's go back to our hypothetical observer outside the universe, looking in at the source code. (Not that this is possible, but I find it clarifies my thinking and what I'm trying to say.) The human is looking at an oak tree. The observer is looking at the human's brain, and sees that certain neurons are sending signals to other neurons. The human is closing their eyes and visualizing an oak tree. There's a similar but not identical neural pattern going on–I find the subjective experience of visualizing an oak tree using my imagination isn't quite the same as the experience of looking at one, but the neural firing is probably similar.

Now the human keeps their eyes closed, and the outside-the-universe hypothetical observer looks at the oak tree, which is made out of cellulose, not neurons. The oak tree starts to fall down. In the neural representations in the human's head, the oak tree isn't falling down, because last time he looked at it, it was nice and steady. He keeps his eyes closed, and his earplugs in, and the oak tree falls on his head and he dies. Up until the moment he died, there was no falling oak tree in his mental representation. The information had no sensory channel to come in through. Does that mean it didn't exist for him, that there was never any "physical oak tree?" If so, what killed him?

I think the LessWrong overall attitude to this is comparable to a bunch of observers saying "gee, wouldn't it have been nice if he'd kept his eyes open, and noticed the tree was falling, and gotten out of the way?" The philosophy behind it is that you can influence what goes into your mental representations of the world (I'll stop calling it "map" to avoid triggering your 'modern equivalent of the soul' detector). If you keep your eyes closed when walking in the forest (or you don't get around to going to the doctor and getting a mammogram or a colonoscopy, or [insert example here]), you get hit by falling trees (or your cancer doesn't get detected until it's Stage 5, at which point you might as well go straight to palliative care).

For me there's something basically wrong with claiming that something doesn't exist if no human being knows about it. Was the core of the planet solid before any human knew it was molten? Is an asteroid going to decide not to hit the Earth after all, just because no telescopes were pointed outwards to look for it? What we don't know does hurt us. It hurts us plenty.

Granted, the 'map and territory' claim, along with many other analogies rampant on LW, was aimed more at topics where their is fairly clear evidence for a particular position (say, evolution), and people have ideological reasons not to believe it. But it goes just as well for topics where no human being knows anything yet. They're still out there.

In another comment, you said that you don't think hard science is possible. (Forgive me if i'm misquoting.) Since our entire debate has been pretty much philosophy and words, let's go for some specifics. Do you think research in hard science will stop advancing, or that is should stop advancing? If so, why?

Comment author: HungryTurtle 10 April 2012 09:09:07PM *  0 points [-]

Okay I think I understand what you're trying to say. So let's go back to our hypothetical observer outside the universe, looking in at the source code. (Not that this is possible, but I find it clarifies my thinking and what I'm trying to say.) The human is looking at an oak tree. The observer is looking at the human's brain, and sees that certain neurons are sending signals to other neurons. The human is closing their eyes and visualizing an oak tree. There's a similar but not identical neural pattern going on–I find the subjective experience of visualizing an oak tree using my imagination isn't quite the same as the experience of looking at one, but the neural firing is probably similar.

If you don't mind I would like to play off your analogy. I agree that the arrangement of neurons will not be identical, but I would pose the question how does the observer know that the human is closing his eyes? When he is looking at the tree perhaps there is wind and a feeling of coolness; but when he is closing his eyes it can also be windy and cool. If there is a lack of wind in one model how does the observer know that the neurons are the result of a mental construct and not the result of looking at a tree through a window while sitting inside?
The way memories/ mental images work is that they are networked. When we recall a past memory we are irrevocably altering it by attaching it to our current consciousness. So for example, let’s say when I am 20 I remember an exploit of my early teens while at a sleep over drinking vanilla soda. The next time I go to recall that memory, I will also unintentionally, and unavoidably, activate memories of that sleep over and vanilla soda. Every time I reactive that memory the soda and sleep over get activated too, strengthening their place in the memory. In another 10 years the two memories are indistinguishable. Back to our observer, when he is looking at me thinking about an oak tree, it irrevocably activates a network of sensory experiences that will not identically replicate the reality of the oak tree in front of me, but will present an equally believable reality of some oak tree. Not the same oak tree, but I would suggest that the workings of the human brain are more complicated than what you have imagined. Where the observer would not be able to tell the real from the construct.

For me there's something basically wrong with claiming that something doesn't exist if no human being knows about it.

I have no disagreement here. It is wrong to claim that something doesn’t exist if humans do not know about it. What I have been arguing about is not ontology (what does or does not exist), but epistemology (how humans come to know). It is not that I am saying no territory exists outside of what is human, but that humans have no other way of knowing territory besides through human means, linguistic means.

Do you think research in hard science will stop advancing, or that is should stop advancing? If so, why?

It is not that I think scientific research will or should stop, but that it should be moderated. What is the purpose of science-technology? I understand the purpose of these things to help humans to be able to better know and predict their environment for the sake of creating a safer niche. Is this what the scientific institution currently does? I would argue no. Currently, I see the driving impetus of science and technology to be profit. That is not a critique in anyway of A.I or the projects of this community. To the contrary, I think the motives of this group are exceptions and exceptional. But I am talking about the larger picture of the scientific institution. The proliferation of new technologies and sciences for the sake of profit has rendered the world less knowable to people, harder to predict, and no in some sense more dangerous (when every technological victory brings with it more sever problems). I am not against hard science. I am against the overemphasis of this one technique to be superimposed onto every facet of human reality.

Comment author: Swimmer963 10 April 2012 09:13:34PM *  1 point [-]

I agree that the arrangement of neurons will not be identical, but I would pose the question how does the observer know that the human is closing his eyes? When he is looking at the tree perhaps there is wind and a feeling of coolness; but when he is closing his eyes it can also be windy and cool. If there is a lack of wind in one model how does the observer know that the neurons are the result of a mental construct and not the result of looking at a tree through a window while sitting inside?

Um...because a hypothetical observer who can look at neurons can look at the eyes 1 cm away from them, too?

Also, I can tell the difference between a real tree and an imagined tree. It'd be pretty inconvenient if humans couldn't distinguish reality from fantasy. If we can feel a difference, that means there's a difference in the neurons (because you are neurons, not an existential essence), and an observer who knew how to read the patterns could see it too.

It is not that I am saying no territory exists outside of what is human, but that humans have no other way of knowing territory besides through human means, linguistic means.

Actually, quite a lot of what you're saying comes across as 'no territory exists outside of what is human.' But obviously that's not what you believe. Yay! We agree!

Comment author: HungryTurtle 10 April 2012 09:54:45PM 0 points [-]

Also, I can tell the difference between a real tree and an imagined tree. It'd be pretty inconvenient if humans couldn't distinguish reality from fantasy.

You can tell the difference because you are aware of the difference to begin with. I don't think it is so obvious that our hypothetical observer would observer neurons with eye sight. I thought the observation of neurons would require some extrasensory phenomena, and if that is the case there is no reason why he or she could not have this sense, but lack normal eye sight.

Actually, quite a lot of what you're saying comes across as 'no territory exists outside of what is human.' But obviously that's not what you believe. Yay! We agree!

Haha that is how I felt about the whole not beleving in the soul thing. By the way thanks for being so light hearted about this whole conversation, in my experience, people can tend to get pretty nasty if you do not submit to what they think is right. I hope I have not come across in a nasty manner.

As to my comment "It is not that I am saying no territory exists outside of what is human, but that humans have no other way of knowing territory besides through human means." I am not trying to argue that we completely abandon empiricism, or that all of reality is deducible to our thoughts. But I can see how it comes across in that way. That is why I used the moss and stars analogy to try and divorce the idea from an analogy of a totally human constructed reality.

Do you think the territory exists without the map (the human)? I think A territory would exist without the map (the human), but it would be a different territory. The territory humans exist in is one that is defined by having a map. The map shapes the territory in a way that to remove it would remove humanity.

How does this sit with you O_o

Comment author: Swimmer963 10 April 2012 10:07:51PM 2 points [-]

By the way thanks for being so light hearted about this whole conversation, in my experience, people can tend to get pretty nasty if you do not submit to what they think is right. I hope I have not come across in a nasty manner.

Bah. Nastiness begets more nastiness. And more nastiness means less actual information getting transmitted. And I happen to like new information more than I like being self-righteous. Also, I'm pretty young and pretty sheltered, and I'm dedicating this period of my life to absorbing as much knowledge as I can. Even if I finish a discussion thinking you're wrong, I've still learned something, if only about how a certain segment of humanity sees the world.

Comment author: TimS 11 April 2012 12:45:38AM *  0 points [-]

Do you think the territory exists without the map (the human)? I think A territory would exist without the map (the human), but it would be a different territory. The territory humans exist in is one that is defined by having a map. The map shapes the territory in a way that to remove it would remove humanity.

I basically agree with this statement, as I think you intend it. Why not call that leftover thing "the territory" and then assert that most scientists are incorrectly asserting that some things are in the territory when they are actually in the map?

In other words, I don't understand what purpose you are trying to achieve when you say:

I disagree with the core ontological assumption being made here, namely a divide between the map and the territory.

Comment author: HungryTurtle 11 April 2012 02:43:41PM 0 points [-]

I don't really know what the leftover part you are talking about is, but I do not think there is a leftover part. I don't think things can be broken down that way. Maybe my comment about the visual and audio cortexes was confusing in this degree, but that was just to sound like a know it all.

Comment author: TimS 11 April 2012 04:11:39PM 0 points [-]

Maybe I'm confused. You said that you thought something would exist even if there were no humans. I'm suggesting that, for purposes of the map/territory metaphor, you could use "territory" to reference the what-would-exist-without-humans stuff.

Comment author: HungryTurtle 11 April 2012 05:31:58PM *  0 points [-]

You mean the portion of reality we don't interact with? Like for example whatever is outside the universe or in a galaxy on the other side of the universe?

Comment author: TimS 11 April 2012 05:48:37PM 0 points [-]

You think that if humans went away, the portion of the universe that we interact with would disappear?

Comment author: HungryTurtle 11 April 2012 07:49:43PM 0 points [-]

No, but it would be fundamentally altered. In my mind,

If you don't mind I will use an analogy to more precisely explain my thoughts. The reality humans interact with in the analogy is an ocean. I don't see humans as fish in the ocean. That would imply a fundamental separateness; that humans come into interaction with their reality, but are not a part of it. If you remove a fish from the ocean, the ocean for the most part is still the ocean. I see humans more as the salt in the ocean. Not as synthesized as say the hydrogen and oxygen are, but salt is pretty thoroughly mixed into the ocean. To remove all salt from the ocean would have such huge ramifications that what would remain would no longer be "an ocean" in traditional terms.

So no, I do not think that if humans disappear the universe disappears. I do think the portion of the universe we affect is largely defined by our presence, and that the removable of this presence would so alter its constitution that it would not be the reality we think of as reality today.

Comment author: wedrifid 11 April 2012 12:06:21AM *  0 points [-]

Do you think the territory exists without the map (the human)? I think A territory would exist without the map (the human), but it would be a different territory. The territory humans exist in is one that is defined by having a map. The map shapes the territory in a way that to remove it would remove humanity.

Specifically, it would remove a significant proportion of the frontal cortex and hippocampus from all the humans leaving whatever is left of the humans rather useless.

Comment author: HungryTurtle 11 April 2012 12:10:31AM 1 point [-]

If you were going to physically lobotomize it out of people, it would probably include most o the cerebral cortex, not just the frontal lobe. The visual cortex is probably the origin of language and symbolic function, but the audio cortexes play a huge role too.