Vladimir_Nesov comments on It's okay to be (at least a little) irrational - Less Wrong

49 Post author: Kaj_Sotala 12 April 2009 09:06PM

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Comment author: MichaelVassar 12 April 2009 09:51:35PM 10 points [-]

This is VERY relevant to my argument that it's OK to lie because if you think it's not OK to lie you won't allow yourself to see that the convenient thing to say might not be the truth... or even to look at it hard enough to check whether it's the convenient thing to say.

Comment author: steven0461 13 April 2009 12:33:02AM 1 point [-]

I don't disagree with the argument, but I don't think it holds for all people -- I for one have a taste for believing heresies that I find myself having to fight.

Comment author: AnnaSalamon 13 April 2009 01:19:48AM 0 points [-]

Mike's argument applies fairly independently of one's tastes. The premise is just that what yourself motivated to say differs, in some instances or others, from what the evidence best suggests is true. Your non-truth-based speech motive could be to avoid hurting someone's feelings, or to assert that that clever heresy you were advocating is indeed a good line of thought, or ... any of the other reasonable or unreasonable pulls that cause us humans to want to say some things and avoid others.

Comment author: steven0461 13 April 2009 01:40:07AM *  0 points [-]

OK, so I guess I should have said "applies a lot less to some people". Also, this seems like one of those cases where one bias might cancel out another; fighting bias with bias means I'm in murky waters, but in the context of this thread we might already be in those murky waters.

ETA: From a cached selves point of view, it seems like building emotional comfort with lying might completely obviate the effect where false statements cause later beliefs that are consistent with those statements (and therefore false), or it might not (e.g., because you don't perfectly remember what was a lie and what was honest). If not then that seems like a serious problem with lying. Lying while in denial of one's capacity to lie is even worse, but the bad effect from more lying might outweigh the good effect from more comfortable lying.

Comment author: MichaelBishop 13 April 2009 07:23:05PM -1 points [-]

I know this has been discussed before but it deserves a top-level post.

We need to think about categories of lies. Some of them will not help us believe the truth.

I've long felt that I can avoid lying better than most because I'm good at finding things that are technically true, and make people feel good, without denying the truths that are uncomfortable.

This logic also suggests we benefit from spending time in groups where convenient things to say are different.