lukeprog comments on Muehlhauser-Goertzel Dialogue, Part 1 - Less Wrong

28 Post author: lukeprog 16 March 2012 05:12PM

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Comment author: lukeprog 17 March 2012 03:09:41AM 4 points [-]

You said you'd like to know what Ben meant by "out of sync with the Cosmos." I'm still not sure what he means, either, but it might have something to do with what he calls "morphic resonance." See his paper Morphic Pilot Theory: Toward an extension of quantum physics that better explains psi phenomena. Abstract:

While the empirical data supporting the existence of psi phenomena is now quite strong, the search for a theoretical understanding of these phenomena has been much less successful. Here a class of extensions of quantum physics is proposed, which appear broadly consistent both with existing physics data and with the body of data regarding psi phenomena. The basic idea is to view "subquantum fluctuations" as biased randomness, where the bias embodies a tendency to convey physical impulse between parts of spacetime with similar pattern or form. In a Bohmian interpretation of quantum physics, this biasing would take the form of a "morphic pilot wave," with a bias to move in directions of greater "similarity of patternment" (or more colorfully, "morphic resonance"). In a Feynman interpretation, it would take the form of a biasing of the measure used within path integrals, so as to give paths in directions of greater morphic resonance a greater weight. Theories in this class could take many possible equational forms, and several such forms are displayed here to exemplify the approach.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 17 March 2012 04:01:40AM 8 points [-]

I'm still not sure what he means, either, but it might have something to do with what he calls "morphic resonance."

Maybe, but (in case this isn't immediately obvious to everyone) the causality likely goes from an intuition about the importance of Cosmos-syncing to a speculative theory about quantum mechanics. I haven't read it, but I think it's more likely that Ben's intuitions behind the importance of Cosmos-syncing might be explained more directly in The Hidden Pattern or other more philosophically-minded books & essays by Ben.

I believe Schmidhuber takes something of a middleground here; he seems to agree with the optimization/compression model of intelligence, and that AIs aren't necessarily going to be human-friendly, but also thinks that intelligence/compression is fundamentally tied into things like beauty and humor in a way that might make the future less bleak & valueless than SingInst folk tend to picture it.

Comment author: gwern 17 March 2012 05:29:55PM *  4 points [-]

but also thinks that intelligence/compression is fundamentally tied into things like beauty and humor in a way that might make the future less bleak & valueless than SingInst folk tend to picture it.

Schmidhuber's aesthetics paper, going on memory, defines beauty/humor as produced by an optimization process which is maximizing the first derivative of compression rates. That is, agents do not seek the most compressible inputs nor incompressible streams of observations, but rather the streams for which their compression rate is increasing the fastest.

This is a very useful heuristic which is built into us because it automatically accounts for diminishing marginal returns: after a certain point, additional compression becomes hard or pointless, and so the agent will switch to the next stream on which progress can be made.

But, IIRC, this is provably not optimal for utility-maximization because it makes no account of the utility of the various streams: you may be able to make plenty of progress in your compression of Methods of Rationality even when you should be working on your programming or biology or something useful despite their painfully slow rates of progress. ('Amusing ourselves to death' comes to mind. If this was meant for ancestral environments, then modern art/fiction/etc. is simply an indirect wireheading: we think we are making progress in decoding our environment and increasing our reproductive fitness, when all we're doing is decoding simple micro-environments meant to be decoded.)

I'm not even sure this heuristic is optimal from the point of view of universal prediction/compression/learning, but I'd have to re-read the paper to remember why I had that intuition. (For starters, if it was optimal, it should be derivable from AIXI or Godel machines or something, but he has to spend much of the paper appealing to more empirical evidence and examples.)

So, given that it's optimal in neither sense, future intelligences may preserve it - sure, why not? especially if it's designed in - but there's no reason to expect it to generically emerge across any significant subset of possible intelligences. Why follow a heuristic as simplistic as 'maximize rate of compression progress' when you can instead do some basic calculations about which streams will be more valuable to compress or likely cheap to figure out?

Comment author: Will_Newsome 17 March 2012 11:42:16PM *  1 point [-]

Check out Moshe's expounding of Steve's objection so Schmidhuber's main point, which I think makes the same argument that you do. (One could easily counter that such a wireheading AI would never get off the ground, but I think that debate can be cordoned off.)

ETA: Maybe a counterargument could be made involving omega or super-omega promising more compression than any artificial pseudo-random generator... but AFAIK Schmidhuber hasn't gone that route.

Comment author: gwern 18 March 2012 01:00:09AM *  1 point [-]

moshez's first argument sounds like it's the same thing as my point about it not being optimal for a utility-maximizer, in considerably different terms.

His second hyperbolic argument seems to me to be wrong or irrelevant: I would argue that people are in practice extremely capable of engaging in hyperbolic discounting with regard to the best and most absorbing artworks while over-consuming 'junk food' art (and this actually forms part of my essay arguing that new art should not be subsidized).

Maybe a counterargument could be made involving omega or super-omega promising more compression than any artificial pseudo-random generator...

I don't really follow. Is this Omega as in the predictor, or Omega as in Chaitin's Omega? The latter doesn't allow any compressor any progress beyond the first few bits due to resource constraints, and if bits of Chaitin's Omega are doled out, they will have to be at least as cheap to crack as brute-force running the equivalent Turing machine or else the agent will prefer the brute-forcing and ignore the Omega-bait. So the agent will do no worse than before and possibly better (eg. if the bits are offered as-is with no tricky traps or proof of work-style schemes).

Comment author: Will_Newsome 18 March 2012 02:54:36AM 1 point [-]

His second hyperbolic argument seems to me to be wrong or irrelevant

Agreed. (I like your essay about junk food art. By the way, did you ever actually do the utilitarian calculations re Nazi Germany's health policies? Might you share the results?)

I don't really follow.

Me neither, I just intuit that there might be interesting non-obvious arguments in roughly that argumentspace.

Omega as in the predictor, or Omega as in Chaitin's Omega?

I like to think of the former as the physical manifestation of the latter, and I like to think of both of them as representations of God. But anyway, the latter.

beyond the first few bits due to resource constraints

You mean because it's hard to find/verify bits of omega? But Schmidhuber argues that certain generalized computers can enumerate bits of omega very easily, which is why he developed the idea of a super-omega. I'm not sure what that would imply or if it's relevant... maybe I should look at this again after the next time I re-familiarize myself with the generalized Turing machine literature.

Comment author: gwern 19 March 2012 08:44:00PM 0 points [-]

By the way, did you ever actually do the utilitarian calculations re Nazi Germany's health policies? Might you share the results?

I was going off a library copy, and thought of it only afterwards; I keep hoping someone else will do it for me.

But Schmidhuber argues that certain generalized computers can enumerate bits of omega very easily, which is why he developed the idea of a super-omega.

His jargon is a little much for me. I agree one can approximate Omega by enumerating digits, but what is 'very easily' here?

Comment author: Will_Newsome 19 March 2012 10:07:01AM 3 points [-]

Ugh, Goertzel's theoretical motivations are okay but his execution is simplistic and post hoc. If people are going to be cranks anyway then they should be instructed on how to do it in the most justifiable and/or glorious manner possible.

Comment author: timtyler 17 March 2012 03:31:55PM 0 points [-]

"Morphic resonance" is nonsense.

There's no need to jump to an unsympathetic interpretation in this case: paperclippers could just be unlikely to evolve.