Will_Newsome comments on Muehlhauser-Goertzel Dialogue, Part 1 - Less Wrong

28 Post author: lukeprog 16 March 2012 05:12PM

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Comment author: Will_Newsome 18 March 2012 11:47:50AM *  3 points [-]

worldly ambitious intelligent people seem to be among the most conspicuously amoral

That's true and important, but stereotypical worldly intelligent people rarely "grave new values on new tables", and so might be much less intelligent than your Rousseaus and Hammurabis in the sense that they affect the cosmos less overall. Even worldly big shots like Stalin and Genghis rarely establish any significant ideological foothold. The memes use them like empty vessels.

But even so, the omnipresent you-claim-might-makes-right counterarguments remain uncontested. Hard to contest them.

Humans are friendlier than chimpanzees but less friendly than bonobos, and across the tree of life niceness and nastiness don't seem to have any relationship to computational power.

It's hard to tell how relevant this is; there's much discontinuity between chimps and humans and much variance among humans. (Although it's not that important, I'm skeptical of claims about bonobos; there were some premature sensationalist claims and then some counter-claims, and it all seemed annoyingly politicized.)

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 18 March 2012 05:33:08PM 3 points [-]

That's true and important, but stereotypical worldly intelligent people rarely "grave new values on new tables", and so might be much less intelligent than your Rousseaus and Hammurabis in the sense that they affect the cosmos less overall.

However, non-worldly intelligent people like Rousseau and Marx frequently give the new values that make people like Robespierre and Stalin possible.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 19 March 2012 04:31:35AM *  -1 points [-]

In the public mind Rousseau and Marx and their intellectual progeny are generally seen as cosmically connected/intelligent/progressive, right? Maybe overzealous, but their hearts were in the right place. If so that would support the intelligence=goodness claim. If the Enlightenment is good by the lights of the public, then the uFAI-Antichrist is good by the lights of the public. [Removed section supporting this claim.] And who are we to disagree with the dead, the sheep and the shepherds?

(ETA: Contrarian terminology aside, the claim looks absurd without its supporting arguments... ugh.)

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 19 March 2012 05:17:53AM 2 points [-]

In the public mind Rousseau and Marx and their intellectual progeny are generally seen as cosmically connected/intelligent/progressive, right?

Depends on which subset of the public we're talking about.

Maybe overzealous, but their hearts were in the right place. If so that would support the intelligence=goodness claim.

I'm confused, is this an appeal to popular opinion?

If the Enlightenment is good by the lights of the public, then the uFAI-Antichrist is good by the lights of the public.

Of course. "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [the beast/dragon]" Revelations 13:8

And who are we to disagree with the dead, the sheep and the shepherds?

People in a position to witness the practical results of their philosophy.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 19 March 2012 05:31:39AM 1 point [-]

(ETA: Contrarian terminology aside, the claim looks absurd without its supporting arguments... ugh.)

Why exactly did you remove that section?

Comment author: Dmytry 18 March 2012 02:33:54PM 0 points [-]

I would say that it is simply the case that many moral systems require intelligence, or are more effective with intelligence. The intelligence doesn't lead to morality per se, but does lead to ability to practically apply the morality. Furthermore, low intelligence usually implies lower tendency to cross-link the beliefs, resulting in less, hmm, morally coherent behaviour.