ArisKatsaris comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 11 - Less Wrong

6 Post author: Oscar_Cunningham 17 March 2012 09:41AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (1174)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 23 March 2012 02:48:41AM *  34 points [-]

I'm pretty sure the solution is as follows (I've already posted it in TV tropes forum). I'm ROT13, if anyone still wants to figure it out: Yhpvhf Znysbl pynvzrq gb unir orra haqre Vzcrevhf ol Ibyqrzbeg. Ibyqrzbeg jnf qrsrngrq ol Uneel Cbggre. Sebz Serq & Trbetr'f cenax jr xabj gung xvyyvat gur jvmneq gung unf lbh haqre gur Vzcrevhf phefr perngrf n qrog. Erfhyg: Yhpvhf Znysbl naq rirel bgure Qrngu rngre pynvzvat gb unir orra vzcrevbfrq ner abj haqre yvsr qrog gb Uneel Cbggre. Ur pna fgneg erqrrzvat.

Comment author: pedanterrific 23 March 2012 03:00:52AM *  7 points [-]

Point of order: vg whfg fnlf "n qrog", abg n yvsr-qrog.

"Vg jbhyq frrz," fnvq Uneel, njr va uvf ibvpr, "gung bar Ze. Neguhe Jrnfyrl jnf cynprq haqre gur Vzcrevhf Phefr ol n Qrngu Rngre jubz zl sngure xvyyrq, guhf perngvat n qrog gb gur Aboyr Ubhfr bs Cbggre, juvpu zl sngure qrznaqrq or ercnvq ol gur unaq va zneevntr bs gur erpragyl obea Tvarien Jrnfyrl.

Also, it would need to be explained why no one ever thought of this before.

Comment author: gwern 23 March 2012 03:08:59AM *  9 points [-]

Also, it would need to be explained why no one ever thought of this before.

Yeah, I was going 'wow, that might actually work' and then it occurred to me that they already discussed whether they had any debts from Lucius they could call in. So unless this is so subtle that no one has ever called in such a debt before, someone must have been holding an idiotball.

EDIT: Logos01 suggests that the debt be invoked of all the Wizengamot members who also claimed to be Imperiused, to swing the vote on whether or not to convict. This might work, but I would personally dislike it as we have no idea how many such people there are.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 23 March 2012 03:29:23AM *  7 points [-]

Gurl qvfphffrq gur npghny qrogf, ohg gurl qvqa'g qvfphff guvf bar, abg rira nf n cbgragvnyvgl, fb V guvax vg qvq whfg fyvc gurve zvaqf, orpnhfr Uneel naq Qhzoyrqber qba'g oryvrir Yhpvhf gb unir orra haqre Vzcrevhf naq guhf gurl pbafvqre Ibyqrzbeg'f qrsrng gb or n oybj ntnvafg Yhpvhf, abg n snibhe gb Yhpvhf perngvat n qrog. Fb, lrnu, V guvax vg whfg qvqa'g pebff gurve zvaqf. Vg qvqa'g pebff zl zvaq rvgure gur jubyr cnfg jrrx, naq V jnf yrff ohfl (gubhtu yrff qrfcrengr sbe n fbyhgvba) guna Uneel be Nyohf jrer.

Lrnu, vg qvq gnxr zr abj bayl 10-15 zvahgrf be fb sbe zr gb pbzr hc jvgu vg, ohg V unq gur fvtavsvpnag nqinagntr bs xabjvat gurer rkvfgrq n fbyhgvba, gung V unq orra tvira fhssvpvrag vasbezngvba fhssvpvragyl sberfunqbjrq, naq gung gur fbyhgvba zbfg yvxryl qrcraqrq ba gur ynjf naq phfgbzf bs zntvpny Oevgnva, nf gur ynfg cnentencu bs gur puncgre vzcyvrf.

Comment author: gwern 23 March 2012 02:59:37PM *  0 points [-]

Still unusually speculative; we're told previously that an Imperius debt is not a life-debt, so it already has a burden of improbability (did they misspeak or simply mean to imply that a debt of some sort is created without reference to how heavy it is?).

And the latter suggestion, while very clever, has the problem that it requires the numbers to work out, so we couldn't conclude that it will work without numbers, so a fair author will not expect us to work it out without numbers, Eliezer is a fair author, and Eliezer hasn't given us the numbers. (We don't know what the margin for conviction is, or how much of the margin is former Death Eaters who used the Imperius defense, or that they all said it was Voldemort who Imperiused them and not, say, an unknown Death Eater whom Harry did not defeat.)

Well, we'll see in a few days.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 23 March 2012 03:09:08PM 2 points [-]

Still unusually speculative; we're told previously that an Imperius debt is not a life-debt

Not quite. We're told it's a debt, we don't know what sort of debt it is.

Comment author: BlackNoise 23 March 2012 03:54:04PM 1 point [-]

Technically, the numbers don't have to work out - Lucius is the one on who's request the trial be held, If his debt can make him withdraw charges or clear Hermione's debt, that alone should suffice.

Still, while this is a clever idea, it doesn't sound very "Taboo Trade-off" or "Think of the Wizengamot as individuals instead of wallpaper".

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 24 March 2012 05:50:34AM 1 point [-]

How about: invoke Lucius's life debt. Trade it for Hermione's.

Comment author: gwern 23 March 2012 04:22:03PM 1 point [-]

If his debt can make him withdraw charges or clear Hermione's debt, that alone should suffice.

You misunderstand, the point is there are 2 possible debt strategies; for one of them, the numbers do have to work out.

"Think of the Wizengamot as individuals instead of wallpaper".

I'd say Logos01's strategy exemplifies thinking of them as individuals, actually...

Comment author: Locke 23 March 2012 03:50:20AM 1 point [-]

Interesting... Ohg jbhyq univat n phefr erobhaq bss lbh ernyyl ubyq hc nf "qrsrngvat" va n pbheg bs Ynj? Fancr'f nanybtl bs n zna gevccvat ba n onol pbzrf gb zvaq. Fgvyy, vg zvtug yrnq gb na vairfgvtngvba vagb gur znggre, juvpu pbhyq fgnyy guvatf.

Comment author: HappilyDeranged 23 March 2012 03:26:20PM 3 points [-]

V qba'g guvax gung Uneel'f ntr vf eryrinag urer. Abobql qvfhchgrf Ibyqrzbeg'f qrngu jnf qhr gb uvf nggnpx ba Yvyl, Wnzrf, naq Uneel Cbggre; guhf, gur qrog jbhyq or gb gur Aboyr Ubhfr bs Cbggre, bs juvpu Uneel vf gur bayl yvivat zrzore. N qrog gb uvf Ubhfr jbhyq gurersber or n qrog gb uvz.

Comment author: drnickbone 23 March 2012 09:32:11AM 1 point [-]

Great idea, but where's the Taboo Trade off?

Comment author: BlackNoise 28 March 2012 06:02:36PM 0 points [-]

Congratulations on correctly guessing (most of) the solution.

Comment author: Alsadius 23 March 2012 03:05:13AM 0 points [-]

motherofgod.jpg

I think you've hit on it. Well done.