Daniel_Starr comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 11 - Less Wrong

6 Post author: Oscar_Cunningham 17 March 2012 09:41AM

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Comment author: Daniel_Starr 24 March 2012 10:54:17AM *  15 points [-]

Harry testifies: "Voldemort did it all. He made me watch with the Imperius curse -- just like when he made me help rescue Bellatrix Black."

Harry provides details of the Bellatrix rescue that only a participant would know. His accuracy can be verified by Azkaban Security Director Amelia Bones, who just happens to be present in the Wizengamot.

Harry's knowledge of the Bellatrix rescue proves the villain who Imperiused him was really Voldemort. Who else would rescue Bellatrix?

If anyone expresses doubts about Harry's super-Patronus, Harry immediately takes the excuse to annihilate a Dementor, one of which also just happens to be present in the Wizengamot.

Harry's Occlumency lets him lie through the Veritaserum about being Imperiused and witnessing poor Hermione being framed by Voldemort. He likewise lies that "Voldemort" (not Quirrell) took him to rescue Bellatrix.

Harry explains that seeing Hermione about to be condemned to Azkaban gave him the strength to finally break free of Voldemort's Imperius curse and tell everyone the truth. (Alternately, Obliviation and a Pensieve Harry wasn't supposed to find.)

Hermione is deemed innocent. Voldemort is acknowledged back in the world and is blamed. Harry can no longer be blackmailed about Azkaban because he's admitted it.

Harry-irony points for saying right in front of Lucius: "I didn't want to help Voldemort, I was under the Imperius curse".

Author-irony points for having Harry lie to blame Voldemort for two crimes that Quirrellmort is in fact guilty of.

Comment author: Alsadius 25 March 2012 06:40:23PM 2 points [-]

Well you've at least managed a "confess" possibility that isn't completely insane, which is rather a feat. Of course, Dumbledore and some others know about the Occlumency thing, which means that there's a rather gaping hole in the explanation. Also, he took months to come forward, which is sketchy, and he said not five minutes earlier that he didn't know whose plot it was. Also, everyone thinks Voldemort is dead, and I didn't think an Imperius could be broken in the HP universe. Still, it's an improvement on that line of thought.

Comment author: pedanterrific 26 March 2012 02:40:51AM 0 points [-]

and I didn't think an Imperius could be broken in the HP universe.

I don't know about MoR, but canonically Harry is dang near immune to the Imperius. For no particular reason, either- he just has an unusually strong will.

Comment author: Nominull 26 March 2012 02:35:12AM 0 points [-]

Well a Killing Curse can't be survived, either. Harry Potter has some precedent for resisting Voldemort's irresistible magics.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 23 June 2012 03:59:39PM 0 points [-]

He broke Barty Crouch Jr.'s Imperius curse as well.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 24 March 2012 10:25:24PM 2 points [-]

Harry-irony points for saying right in front of Lucius: "I didn't want to help Voldemort, I was under the Imperius curse".

I don't agree with your general thesis, but this line from Harry would be double plus ironic with Lucius believing that Harry is Voldemort.

Comment author: Daniel_Starr 25 March 2012 08:40:02AM *  0 points [-]

Minor variant: "I did it all. Voldemort made me, with the Imperius curse -- just like when he made me help rescue Bellatrix Black."

Advantages:

  • requires Harry to make up fewer details about Voldemort's behavior (Harry just claims Voldemort Imperiused Harry with his orders regarding Hermione and then disappeared).
  • incredibly dramatic first line for chapter. "I did it! I'm guilty!" Readers spend several paragraphs wondering if Harry is actually setting himself up to go to Azkaban in Hermione's place.

Disadvantage:

  • requires Harry to claim that the Imperius curse gave him spell expertise he otherwise doesn't have (Obliviate and the False Memory Charm).

I personally dislike the Imperius "powerup", but it's in canon so Harry could certainly know about it in the fic. Aside from that objection this is an even more dramatic variant.

Comment author: DanArmak 24 March 2012 02:02:08PM 0 points [-]

Harry can defeat Veritaserum (maybe), but definitely can't lie to a Legilemens - and the Wizengamot officially uses one to interrogate witnesses. Maybe they wouldn't do it on the spot, for whatever reason, but they would get to shortly, because this is very serious business. And if they saw in Harry's mind that he lied, they'd just interrogate him very thoroughly and then never listen to him speak freely.

Comment author: pedanterrific 24 March 2012 05:39:29PM 2 points [-]

However, it's likely that Lucius believes Harry is a perfect Occlumens, which means he would fight to block a Legilimency examination.

Comment author: DanArmak 24 March 2012 06:57:49PM 2 points [-]

Suppose enough people disbelieve Lucius, or just oppose him if he's keeping his reasoning secret. Harry is the one coming forward asking to testify, so they decide to let him.

But when testifying before the Wizengamot, standard procedure is to use a Legilemens. They even used one on Hermione, and no-one thinks she's any kind of Occlumens at all. So an Occlumens would be used, and would report that Harry is lying.

There's no way Daniel_Starr's plan for Harry would work - whether they let him testify or not - unless he is a perfect Occlumens, and I don't believe that even of his dark side, it's not been sufficiently foreshadowed. (Also, Eliezer just wrote in the A/N that in text fiction, a protagonist can't just power-up and gain new abilities during a crisis, because it makes for poor storytelling; he has to solve the crisis using abilities he already has.)

Comment author: pedanterrific 24 March 2012 07:56:05PM 6 points [-]

But when testifying before the Wizengamot, standard procedure is to use a Legilemens. They even used one on Hermione, and no-one thinks she's any kind of Occlumens at all. So an Occlumens would be used, and would report that Harry is lying.

I don't believe this is correct.

The Potions Master raised his voice. "This is not Muggle Britain, Mr. Potter!" Severus's face was as expressionless as ever, but the bite in his voice was sharp. "The Aurors have an accusation under Veritaserum and a confession under Veritaserum. So far as they are concerned, the investigation is done."

"Not quite," said Dumbledore, just as Harry seemed ready to explode. "I have insisted to Amelia that this matter be given the utmost scrutiny. [...]

The boy nodded, his eyes still directly addressing her. "Which of those spells can be detected? Which would the Aurors try to detect?"

"The Confundus Charm would wear off in a few hours," she said, after a moment to gather her thoughts. "Miss Granger would remember the Imperius. Obliviation cannot be detected by any known means, but only a Professor could have cast that spell upon a student without alarm from the Hogwarts wards. Legilimency - can only be detected by another Legilimens, I think -"

"I requested that Miss Granger be examined by the court Legilimens," said Dumbledore. "The examination showed -"

They only bothered to use a Legilimens on the direct request of the Chief Warlock; Veritaserum is normally considered sufficient.

Comment author: DanArmak 24 March 2012 09:12:08PM 0 points [-]

Good point. It's still possible that someone will request a Legilemens if Harry testifies, so such plans are risky.

Comment author: Daniel_Starr 24 March 2012 10:40:44PM *  5 points [-]

Dumbledore won't ask for a Legilimens, because he'll trust Harry.

Lucius won't, because he believes Harry is Voldemort and a perfect Occlumens.

And everybody else will follow Dumbledore and Lucius' lead on the matter.

Politicians hate taking risks and being caught out. Subordinate politicians really hate taking risks and being caught out.

Comment author: clgroft 24 March 2012 02:45:57PM 0 points [-]

Unless he's a perfect Occlumens by now.

Comment author: Locke 24 March 2012 02:51:55PM 4 points [-]

Or rather, unless his really really dark side is. Which I find quite plausible, really.

Comment author: Manfred 25 March 2012 11:09:01AM 1 point [-]

Nah, "what use is a mysterious dark side that doesn't even give him super powers?"

Comment author: ahartell 25 March 2012 02:27:20PM *  7 points [-]

After almost a month of work, and more on a whim than any real hunch, Harry had decided to make himself coldly angry and then try the book's Occlumency exercises again. At that point he'd mostly given up hope on that sort of thing, but it had still seemed worth a quick try -

He'd run through all the book's hardest exercises in two hours, and the next day he'd gone and told Professor Quirrell he was ready.

His dark side, it had turned out, was very, very good at pretending to be other people.

Chapter 27

Comment author: Baughn 26 March 2012 10:29:28AM 0 points [-]

Which, to clarify, it turned out that it wasn't. Quirrel saw right through it.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 23 June 2012 04:03:53PM 1 point [-]

Do you mean Mr. Bester?

It was good at pretending to be other people, he just didn't know enough to make sure that the other person was the only one that Legilimens saw when reading his mind.

Comment author: Baughn 23 June 2012 04:32:26PM 0 points [-]

I don't remember at this point which one it was, but the GGP text suggests Quirrel was in fact the one to test him then.

As for the mechanics of it - you may be right, I mostly recall that it didn't actually work.

Comment author: Locke 25 March 2012 02:25:58PM *  0 points [-]

His dark side, it turned out, was very good at pretending to be other people.

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