Rational_Brony comments on George Orwell's Prelude on Politics Is The Mind Killer - Less Wrong

10 [deleted] 29 March 2012 04:27PM

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Comment author: [deleted] 08 April 2012 11:43:06AM 1 point [-]

Well, there have been many dead-ends in political evolution, but at the end of the day and all things considered and between one thing and another, one can say that:

  • The law applies equally to everyone regardless of wealth, birth, sex, sexual preference, creed, etc. etc.
  • You don't get punished retroactively.
  • Everyone is involved to some degree in lawmaking and policy decision.
  • Children having rights and being granted special protection.
  • The diffusion of barriers between in-groups and the progressive elimination of mutual exclusivity between them.
  • The Scientific Method, and its continuation in Modern Rationalism
  • The development in gender equality when it comes to rights and powers.
  • And so on and so forth.

Are actually healthy structural improvements in a society, and make it more fit to achieve any goal it sets its collective mind to. At least in terms of productivity, both economical and intellectual. It's also better at averting the Original Position Fallacy: the less the original position matters over your skills to keep it, the better the distribution of powers in terms of competence and work capacity (not accounting for the frightful overhead wasted in power-jockeying, but that can be moderated in a society where people are properly equipped to assess their own competence and that of others, so that they don't aim for a position they weren't capable of keeping).

Comment author: Vladimir_M 21 April 2012 09:40:25PM *  9 points [-]

See, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Except for the scientific method, I could take pretty much any of these examples and show that -- even assuming complete agreement on values, which by itself means almost begging the question -- the contemporary narrative of progress rests on the twin pillars of ignorance (or falsification) of actual history and arbitrary assignment of weight to trends that have gone in opposite directions. (And even for the scientific method, it can be argued that the contemporary official academic science is in far worse shape than the scientific community a century or two ago.)

Now, it is true that one can criticize certain narratives of progress without raising too much controversy. For example, I could dispute your first two points by arguing that the modern Western legal systems place common people in a far worse position than what their theoretical high principles would suggest, so much that, by some reasonable measures, the system is in fact more capricious, cruel, and unjust than what existed in the past. (However, it would be more difficult to get away with saying that the attempts to enforce some of these contemporary high principles, rather than insufficient vigor and consistency in enforcing them, are in fact among the causes of these problems.) On the other hand, for many other narratives of progress, any similar argument would quickly brand the speaker as unfit for polite society.

Comment author: [deleted] 20 April 2012 10:53:06AM *  8 points [-]

Are actually healthy structural improvements in a society, and make it more fit to achieve any goal it sets its collective mind to. At least in terms of productivity, both economical and intellectual.

I actually think most of the items on your list are not of this kind, but rather expensive concessions to our increasingly forager mindset.

Fundamentally all the evidence I have encountered so far in favour of these being improvements in the sense you have defined (and make no mistake I have been exposed to the arguments nearly my entire life and have indeed sought out to study them and even reconstruct better arguments from their corpses) seems to boil down to looking around the world and see these sorts of things as causing prosperity and other nice things, because they tend to correlate with them. But there is nothing preventing us from saying the same of obesity and other diseases of civilization! What we are doing here is irrationally privileging such a hypothesis, engaging in wishful thinking, because we (now) like democracy or the state having more resources to manage children's lives and don't like obesity or substance abuse, we apply differing standards when thinking about what makes our civilization "more formidable". Don't get me wrong I like many of the other things on your list, but I am highly confident at least a few are liabilities rather than assets.

The scientific method seems to be the only major exception. Not punishing people retroactively sounds to me very much like a good idea, but our society is not one that consistently abstains from this (I suggest you consider recent history), so I can't really say whether societies that stuck to this principle really would work better as theory predicts they should.