FiftyTwo comments on Rationality Quotes April 2012 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: Oscar_Cunningham 03 April 2012 12:42AM

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Comment author: scav 03 April 2012 07:53:33AM 6 points [-]

Clearly, Bem’s psychic could bankrupt all casinos on the planet before anybody realized what was going on. This analysis leaves us with two possibilities. The first possibility is that, for whatever reason, the psi effects are not operative in casinos, but they are operative in psychological experiments on erotic pictures. The second possibility is that the psi effects are either nonexistent, or else so small that they cannot overcome the house advantage. Note that in the latter case, all of Bem’s experiments overestimate the effect.

Returning to Laplace’s Principle, we feel that the above reasons motivate us to assign our prior belief in precognition a number very close to zero.

Why Psychologists Must Change the Way They Analyze Their Data: The Case of Psi

Eric–Jan Wagenmakers, Ruud Wetzels, Denny Borsboom, & Han van der Maas

Comment author: FiftyTwo 03 April 2012 09:40:35PM 4 points [-]

I don't see why the first hypothesis should necessarily be rejected out of hand. If the supposed mechanism is unconscious then having it react to erotic pictures and not particular casino objects seems perfectly plausible. Obviously the real explanation might be that the data wasn't strong enough to prove the claim, but we shouldn't allow the low status of "psi theories" to distort our judgement.

Comment author: scav 04 April 2012 08:12:28AM 1 point [-]

One good thing about Bayesian reasoning is that assigning a prior belief very close to zero isn't rejecting the hypothesis out of hand. The posterior belief will be updated by evidence (if any can be found). And even if you start with a high prior probability and update it with Bem's evidence for precognition, you would soon have a posterior probability much closer to zero than your prior :)

BTW there is no supposed mechanism for precognition. Just calling it "unconscious" doesn't render it any more plausible that we have a sense that would be super useful if only it even worked well enough to be measured, and yet unlike all our other senses, it hasn't been acted on by natural selection to improve. Sounds like special pleading to me.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 05 April 2012 12:30:13AM 3 points [-]

Just calling it "unconscious" doesn't render it any more plausible that we have a sense

FiftyTwo wasn't arguing that the sense was plausible. He was conditioning on the assumption that the sense exists.

Comment author: scav 05 April 2012 02:33:11PM 0 points [-]

OK, point taken. However, there being no proposed mechanism for precognition, it can hardly be called "plausible" that it operates inconsistently and that the experiment just happened to pick one of the things it can do out of all possibilities.

After all, if nobody knows how it's supposed to work, how does the experimenter justify claiming his data as evidence for precognition rather than quantum pornotanglement? You could say I just made that up on the spot. It doesn't matter: precognition isn't necessarily a thing either.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 06 April 2012 03:41:40AM 3 points [-]

How exactly does "quantum pornotanglement" and why doesn't it count as a type/mechanism for precognition.

Comment author: Vaniver 06 April 2012 04:45:33AM 3 points [-]

Now I'm thinking of pin-up Feynman diagrams.

Comment author: [deleted] 06 April 2012 09:44:34AM 3 points [-]

(Does Rule 34 apply?)

Comment author: FiftyTwo 11 May 2012 12:41:09AM 0 points [-]

Analogously, if someone told me they had a magic rock that could pick up certain pieces metal and not others, and couldn't explain why. it might be they are wrong it can pick up any metals, or there may be an underling effect causing these observations that we don't understand. In the analogy magnetism can be observed long before its is understood, and why some metals are and aren't magnetic isn't a trivial problem.

Similarly it may be that some psychic phenomena exists which works for some things, and not for others, for reasons we're not aware of. The fact we can't fully explain why it works in some cases but not others doesn't mean we should outlaw evidence of the cases where it does.

Comment author: scav 11 May 2012 08:11:19AM 0 points [-]

I would at least expect them to be able to demonstrate their magic rock and let me try it out on various materials.

If they had a rock that they claimed could pick up copper but not brass, based on only one experiment, but the rock now doesn't work if any scientists are watching, I'd be disinclined to privilege their hypothesis of the rock's magic properties.

Nobody is outlawing the evidence. I'm saying the evidence is unconvincing, and far short of what is needed to support an extraordinary claim such as precognition. It is for example much less rigorous than the evidence there was for another causality-violating hypothesis: FTL neutrinos. That turned out to be due to an equipment defect. Many were disappointed but nobody was surprised. Same reference class if you ask me.