Alsadius comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 14, chapter 82 - Less Wrong

7 Post author: FAWS 04 April 2012 02:53AM

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Comment author: ChrisHallquist 09 April 2012 08:42:43AM *  3 points [-]

I'd like to give an updated version of my thinking about the Night of Godric's Hollow:

1) The official story requires Avada Kedavra to behave in very funny ways against a love shield (a normally invisible kill turning a body into a burnt crisp.) Furthermore, as far as I can tell, the only way it can be known to be true is if someone cast prior incantum on Voldemort's wand. Which seems unlikely, because Bellatrix snatched it (See Ch. 53).

2) This indicates the good guys are lying or deceived. Possible reasons

a) Godric's Hollow was a trap laid by the good guys, who don't want to reveal their methods, so they made up a story about how it happened to fool the Death Eaters. Unlikely, because if they had, they probably would have prevented Bellatrix from getting Voldemort's wand.

b) Voldemort faked his death. The good guys showed up, noticed they were confused, and figured Voldemort had just executed some inscrutable plot. They make up a story to prevent a panic.

c) Voldemort faked his death. Bellatrix switched a look-alike wand that had, recently, only been used to cast Avada Kedavra, fooling the good guys.

"Voldemort faked his death" is also supported by what we know of his intelligence.

The question is why did Voldemort fake his death? Everything we know about Eliezer's philosophy in this story suggests Voldemort should not have tried a plot that was more complicated than necessary. And it doesn't seem like this plot is necessary. The evidence we have indicates Voldemort was winning the war. So thus far, no theory I've seen for why he would do that looks convincing.

But perhaps, contrary to what we've been led to believe, Voldemort realized he would not win the war if he kept fighting it in a straightforward manner?

Comment author: Alsadius 09 April 2012 08:49:26PM 4 points [-]

2b seems unlikely given Harry's memory of the night matching the official line. Did Dumbledore do a FMC on baby Harry?

Also, remember that for someone with Horcruxes, one can de facto fake one's own death by actually dying and waiting for the resurrection. There's no particular need to assume that he survived that night in the traditional sense of the word.

Comment author: malthrin 09 April 2012 09:05:31PM 0 points [-]

This memory?

Into the vacuum rose the memory, the worst memory, something forgotten so long ago that the neural patterns shouldn't have still existed.

Comment author: Alsadius 09 April 2012 09:42:03PM 1 point [-]

That's the one. It certainly came from somewhere - IIRC, it's got details he wasn't told that have been confirmed, which means that it's not an internally-generated false memory. So either it's real, or it's been implanted by someone familiar with the tale.

Comment author: gjm 09 April 2012 10:02:23PM -2 points [-]

Or he imagined it and merely believed it to be a memory.

Comment author: Alsadius 10 April 2012 12:28:44AM 1 point [-]

IIRC, it's got details he wasn't told that have been confirmed, which means that it's not an internally-generated false memory.

My memory may be in error on this point, but I did consider your hypothesis and explicitly reject it.

Comment author: gjm 10 April 2012 06:25:29PM 2 points [-]

Perhaps one of the at-least-two people who downvoted me would like to tell me what these details are that make it impossible for the memory to have been internally generated.

So far, all I can come up with is this: on the basis of Voldemort's mild reluctance to kill his mother in this memory, Harry deduced (via a rather tenuous chain of reasoning) that Dumbledore told Snape about the prophecy, and when he confronted McGonagall with this she behaved in a manner consistent with what he deduced. This doesn't seem all that conclusive to me. What am I missing?

Comment author: [deleted] 10 April 2012 07:20:31PM *  1 point [-]

This doesn't seem all that conclusive to me.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that events did not happen as Harry deduced them. In canon, Snape overheard the prophecy being given. This seems to match up with what Snape says in the chapter formerly known as 77:

I thought I had merely happened to overhear it, when in truth it was I who was overheard.

Therefore I suggest that Dumbledore did not tell Snape about the prophecy. I'm not sure why or how McGonagall knows: possibly, in a departure from canon, she was conducting Trelawney's interview instead of Dumbledore himself.

The beginning of Harry's line of reasoning is that Voldemort was not terribly eager to kill Lily Potter. This seems likely to be true, but is also not indicative of anything. It's a mildly strange thing to imagine, but we imagine strange things all the time.

Quirrell suggests that Harry can see Thestrals due to his memory of that night, which would suggest that it's a true memory. But Harry seems to think that he saw the Thestrals because he has realized that Dementors are death, so that he has "seen death and comprehended it" in a more literal sense.

Comment author: pedanterrific 10 April 2012 07:32:16PM 2 points [-]

I'm not sure why or how McGonagall knows: possibly, in a departure from canon, she was conducting Trelawneys' interview instead of Dumbledore himself.

Yep:

The old wizard's face turned grave. "The same reason it must be kept secret, Minerva. The same reason I told you to come to me, if Harry made any such claim. Because it is a power that Voldemort knows not."

The words took a few seconds to sink in.

And then the cold shiver went down her spine, as it always did when she remembered.

It had started out as an ordinary job interview, Sybill Trelawney applying for the position of Professor of Divination.

[Snip prophecy]

Those dreadful words, spoken in that terrible booming voice, didn't seem to fit something like partial Transfiguration.

"Perhaps not, then," Dumbledore said after Minerva tried to explain. [...]

Comment author: gwern 09 April 2012 09:12:45PM 1 point [-]

Did Dumbledore do a FMC on baby Harry?

A FMC is described as completely envisioned and controlled by the caster, putting as much time into it as the memory covers; so Dumbledore in FMCing a baby Harry is choosing every detail of the scene. Given that... why would Dumbledore direct a scene like Harry recollects? It has several oddities which reduce its value as a 'you killed my parents! In the name of the Moon, I will punish you!' memory.

Comment author: ChrisHallquist 09 April 2012 10:42:12PM 2 points [-]

But Harry's memory didn't include Voldemort casting Avada Kedavra on Harry. That memory is neutral WRT the "rebounded Avada Kedavra" hypothesis.

Also, no part of a rebuttal to your comment, but re-reading the scene, what's with this line?:

And the boy in the crib saw it, the eyes, those two crimson eyes, seeming to glow bright red, to blaze like miniature suns, filling Harry's whole vision as they locked to his own -

Comment author: bogdanb 09 April 2012 11:21:11PM *  0 points [-]

Didn't Moaning Myrtle recount something similar about her own death in canon, in which the glowing eyes were the Basilisk's?

It'd be funny if the rock Dumbledore gives Harry were actually a piece of petrified: a) James (and Dumbledore knows) b) Voldemort (and he doesn't) c) Harry himself (and the scenario for that would be ridiculous).

Comment author: Alsadius 10 April 2012 12:29:31AM 0 points [-]

Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "your father's rock", doesn't it?

Comment author: staticIP 11 April 2012 04:02:10AM 0 points [-]

they locked to his own

legilimency of some sort? or simply dramatic license. I don't remember any example of that particular action being pointed out that wasn't leglimency.

Comment author: pedanterrific 11 April 2012 04:06:58AM 0 points [-]

In canon? In MoR eye-contact has happened a bunch of times since Harry got good enough to detect Legilimency, it's just been the usual dramatic device.