gwern comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 14, chapter 82 - Less Wrong

7 Post author: FAWS 04 April 2012 02:53AM

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Comment author: gwern 11 April 2012 03:43:19AM *  11 points [-]

Did anyone notice the bit about the Philosopher's Stone? I had initially assumed that the PS was following canon, and the reason that the PS remained intact in Hogwarts was that Voldemort made no attempt on it and bypassing the incredibly elaborate protectings (per book 1) prompting its destruction by Dumbledore & Flamel.

But now we have Harry suggesting it be moved, Dumbledore agreeing and it not being moved because Flamel wants it at Hogwarts. Well, in book 1 when they discovered it could not be kept safe at safest place #2 (Gringotts) they moved it to safest place #1 (Hogwarts) and when safest place #1 failed, they just destroyed it. Dumbledore breathes no word of destroying it, despite both him and Flamel consenting to it in canon.

And notice, if you check MoR carefully, at no point is Harry aware that the guarded object is the Stone; nor has Flamel been mentioned anywhere near Harry as creator of the Stone - Flamel has only come up in conversations with Dumbledore/McGonagall/Snape/Quirrel. (Although the topic is one would expect to be of keen interest to Harry: the Stone, recall, grants immortality or at least anti-aging.)

Conclusion: Eliezer has diverged from canon and carefully kept Harry ignorant because the Stone is going to play a role in future plot events. Given its properties, probably a large role - it's now a massive Chekhov's gem.

EDIT: See especially http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=722rasd1fu9p8mn5fdcbp572&page=89#2214

Comment author: Alsadius 12 April 2012 10:23:02PM 3 points [-]

Ever since I read the Potter books, I knew that the Philosopher's Stone stood a very high chance of being MoR!Harry's weapon of choice.

(Yes, I read the actual Potter books for the first time after reading the first few dozen chapters of MoR.)

Comment author: thomblake 11 April 2012 03:35:26PM 1 point [-]

Slightly less Chekhovy though, since the removal of the reference from Chapter 4.

Comment author: gwern 11 April 2012 04:19:11PM 0 points [-]

I must have read it after it was removed because I don't remember it there.

Comment author: thomblake 11 April 2012 04:26:37PM *  2 points [-]

When Harry asked Griphook what he could do with a ton of silver, Griphook originally looked at him suspiciously and asked if he <strike>had</strike> EDIT: expected to soon /EDIT come into possession of a philosopher's stone. It seemed pretty awkward really - I'm glad it's gone.

Comment author: gwern 11 April 2012 04:33:34PM 1 point [-]

Yes, that is awkward. In alchemic lore, there are projections and steps in the process that would let you turn base metals into silver, but this is extremely obscure stuff and so Griphook jumping from 'ton of silver' to 'possession of a Philosopher's Stone' looks simply like an error on the author's part since 99.9% of everyone reading it only knows of the Stone turning base metals into gold and not silver.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 12 April 2012 06:55:49AM 0 points [-]

The expression is "the medicine of metals", I think — the use of the Stone of the Wise to heal metals of the infirmity which causes them to be less noble than gold.

Comment author: chaosmosis 13 April 2012 03:50:58PM *  0 points [-]

No, but almost. Griphook said "are you expecting to find a Philosopher's Stone soon"? He was probing Harry to see if Harry knew that the Stone was at Hogwarts, and then McGonagall scolded him for giving away a hint. I liked it. And Harry totally missed the hint, which is reasonable but I was kind of bummed because I want him to be a superhero.

Comment author: Random832 13 April 2012 03:52:55PM 2 points [-]

The problem is, hearing this would almost certainly cause Harry to research what a Philosopher's Stone is, and given his stance on immortality vs death, would almost certainly do everything he can to try to get one (unless there turn out to be insurmountable obstacles to using it to mass-produce elixir of life for general distribution).

Comment author: gwern 13 April 2012 04:11:34PM 0 points [-]

unless there turn out to be insurmountable obstacles

There's an active prediction on PB.com that making Stones requires human sacrifice etc.

Comment author: Random832 13 April 2012 04:18:12PM *  0 points [-]

Only an issue if making the elixir consumes the stone (which is more what I was getting at) - one already exists, so it's a sunk cost.

It could also be an obstacle to mass production if the rate at which it can be produced with the existing supply of stones is insufficient to make enough volume for mass distribution.

Comment author: LauralH 14 April 2012 03:24:45AM 0 points [-]

The best "theory" I read was that only the person who makes the Stone can drink the Elixir, which would explain why only Mr and Mrs Flamel have benefited from it.

Comment author: Percent_Carbon 11 April 2012 04:56:13AM 1 point [-]

Quirrell to Snape, I think, not Harry.

Comment author: gwern 11 April 2012 01:34:32PM 2 points [-]

Whups. Yes. So that makes Harry entirely ignorant of Flamel and also the stone.