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VincenzoLingley comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 15, chapter 84 - Less Wrong
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Comments (1221)
I was rereading the new chapters and got very confused about what happens between casting a spell and its effects.
Hexes are slow enough to be dodged from almost point-blank range. Chapter 78:
But some spells have instantaneous effect. Chapter 78:
(There is no way that could have been safe given normal reaction times and current values of g)
Then there is wandless magic, which (I think) is instantaneous in canon, but that would be far too overpowered for MoR. Actually even the hover charm, assuming it is instantaneous, could be deadlier in the hands of a powerful wizard than the killing curse.
I'm curious why the spell has to be shot out from the wand, rather than from a completely different direction or appearing spontaneously in the middle of the target. There's an underlying assumption that magic is like lasers and wands are like guns in much of Canon!HP and in MOR, but that doesn't really seem justified. Maybe this is just another conceptual limitation?
You're right, no hint of an explanation why wands are necessary has ever been given. Spontaneous underage magic, as well as high-level wandless magic, would be evidence in favour of the "conceptual limitation" theory.
On the other hand, this wouldn't explain why Bacon, who apparently lacked this conceptual limitation, was severely held back in his research by lack of a wand. Also, it doesn't explain why high-level wizards continue to use wands for the overwhelming majority of their spellcasting.
Maybe it's not that wands are needed to cast spells, but that they amplify magical power (and perhaps adds focus to a target). While the magically powerful are able to cast high level wandless magic, most are unable to. Hence, they have to use wands to make their spells powerful enough to have an effect. Children have spontaneous magic but they can't cast as much as adults normally can with wands.
Perhaps Roger Bacon just wasn't magically powerful. -shrugs- Not all great thinkers have to have tons of strength. Er, wasn't he Muggleborn? If the "Muggleborns-are-weaker" theory is true, then it makes sense.
My hypothesis for the reason why high-level wizards continue to use wands is that they've simply grown dependent. If they've been using magic-amplifying wands ever since they were eleven, then they would be used to being assisted by the wand. I think this matches my mental model of Quirrell, who is seen doing a lot of wandless magic (stopping spells midair, spontaneously combusting inkwells). He seems like the kind of person that would train himself to use his wand as little as possible. And even if he can't duel without, his magical ability is certainly very impressive.
However, the spells they do cast are fully as powerful as those of adults with wands.
Pretty sure this theory has been unambiguously dismissed both in canon and in MoR.
Otherwise your hypothesis is credible, though I still don't accept it as I can't see all the high-level wizards we know being dependent on wands when there are so many advantages to wandless magic (and when high-level wizards tend to be ones with strong, independent personalities).
I think both have been silent on the question of whether there is any notion of inherent "power levels" at all, let alone whether it is heritable or whether it is correlated to being a "muggleborn".
EDIT: It's clear in MoR that - if Harry's hypothesis on magic heritability is true (a big if), then other non-binary factors seem unlikely to be correlated to being a "muggleborn". However, I felt that Harry very strongly anchored on that hypothesis, which was one of my reasons for being annoyed with him and eventually stopping reading (to pick it back up later on, obviously)
In fact more powerful than most adults; there's a line in Chapter 78 that "If [Mr and Mrs Davis]'d been children young enough for accidental magic they probably would've spontaneously Disillusioned themselves.", which we know requires significantly above-average power in MoR. (Assuming that line from the narrator isn't exaggeration.)
If you accept the hypothesis, wanded magic has the not-insignificant advantage of being more powerful. What's the advantage of wandless magic?
I thought it was obvious. What if you're without a wand?
If you're in battle without a wand, it seems to me that either 1) you've been ambushed, or 2) you've been disarmed. I don't really see that the ability to cast understrength spells helps all that much in either situation.
That depends on how creative you get. Even understrength spells, especially if unexpected, could tip the balance in your direction - especially if all you're looking for is, say, an opportunity to escape. Even if you lose your gun, a rock can still be useful.
Yeah, thinking about it a little more, even just wandless Apparation would be pretty useful.
Non-reliance on wands is a big one, since watching the movements of an opponent's wand, or disarming them, are combat fundamentals. Being able to cast spells unnoticed is another one (consider the powerful effect of the mid-interrogation Memory Charm in the Order of the Phoenix). Also, it's presumably better training in terms of building up power and skill to cast spells without a crutch.
Besides, many spells don't really need extra power to work, as they have a binary effect (like the Quietus Charm) or typically target objects that can't resist (such as the Vanishing Charm).
Nitpick, but Quirrell cast a Quieting Charm on the rocket in the Azkaban escape, but Harry's ears were still ringing enough afterward that he couldn't hear Bellatrix shouting. So it's not a binary effect; there could be Quieting Charms that are capable of silencing louder noises than others.
It seems to be different for different spells. For example, some spells can't be dodged because of the missile shape rather than because of speed (e.g. wide blasts rather than beams or missiles). Likewise, some require physical contact (Transfiguration) while others affect everyone in the vicinity irrespective of location, targeting or obstacles (Muffliato, the one that stops people overhearing you).
Also, I don't think it gets deadlier than the Killing Curse by definition - it is unblockable and kills instantly. Any other spell we know of can be blocked by a good enough shield and/or have its effects undone before they are fatal (by an ally if not by the target themselves).
It can be dodged. My point was that if the hover charm is instant and cannot be dodged, then accelerating the victim into something (e.g. sky then ground) can kill them without giving them time before the spell hits. And with sufficient acceleration, the victim won't be able to react.
Alternatively, the Arresto Momentum spell is quite instantly deadly if you use the right frame of reference.
Ha, another magical weapon of mass destruction. Hop on a broom and repeatedly cast Arresto Momentum on the Earth.
Genius. Just arrest the momentum of, say, their head while they are flying on a broomstick. Or stop their heart from beating.
Assuming that partial Charming is possible which it probably is because of the same reasons partial Transfiguration is.
I was actually thinking that the surface of the earth relative to the core rotates at 1040 miles per hour. Also that the speed of the earth relative to the sun is 67,000 miles per hour, though that could be too deadly. (Edit: Since I was curious, casting arresto momentum with the sun as a frame of reference on a 50kg person would release 22 gigajoules. IE, you'd turn them into a kinetic kill weapon with destructive force equal to 5 tons of TNT)
But you're right, arresting the momentum could be brutal in a lot of different ways.
Presumably, you'd need some kind of conceptual shift like with partial Transfiguration before you could do this. It seems like an implicit rule of Potterverse magic that it works according to the laws of physics you instinctively expect (or perhaps the ones the designer expected), so you have to "jailbreak" the spell before it can work in an updated, relativistic model.
The same thing would happen with Apparition, floo travel, etc. I'm pretty sure you just aren't allowed to manipulate momentum that way.
True. But that would have to be an extreme amount of acceleration, whereas in MoR it takes several casters just to fully counter the effect of gravity on one teenage boy. Also, it seems unlikely at best that the Hover Charm can accelerate people downwards - and if you lift someone high enough for a fall to kill them, you give them time to react while they fall.
Also, it's possible that the Hover Charm could be blocked by a pre-cast shield - in fact, this seems likely, otherwise people could just get around non-spherical shields by lifting the target and then shooting them from underneath.
Several first-year casters. Quirrell stuck 50 people to the ceiling. You might say that he has better ways to use his power - but the killing curse is not one of them. His killing curse is little better than anyone else's.
There's got to be a spell for that, and it it likely to work similarly to the hover charm, i.e. instant effect.
If by a specific anti-hover shield, then one needs to always keep up a large number of shields against various spells. If by a generic shield, well, that isn't in my mental model of shields, but I guess it's possible. In which case I agree that the killing curse is superior agains a raised shield, but it is still inferior against an unsuspecting enemy.
Ah. Hundreds of girls Summoning a Harry Potter into their arms?
I imagine SPHEW's battles vs. the bullies would have looked different if Protego didn't protect against telekinesis.
An unsuspecting enemy can apparate when they realize they are being affected by the hover charm. When they realize they are being affected by Avada Kedavra... they're dead.
You make some excellent points. I can only conclude that the Hover Charm (and your proposed opposite) must have some built-in limitations, otherwise no-one would bother using anything else against unshielded targets.
I do suspect that the spells we think of as instant are actually very fast invisible missiles - this would account both for the fact that one aims them with a wand, and for the fact that the likes of Quirrell can sneeze away spells which have no visible missiles.
In canon, Snape was able to shut down everything Harry tried against him in combat in the sixth book, because as long as Harry hadn't mastered occlumency or silent spellcasting, his attacks were all sufficiently telegraphed that a superior duelist and leglimens like Snape could simply counter them all before he could fire them off.
Indeed. I'm reminded of martial arts - in a sparring match between a very fit beginner and a creaky master, the master still just toys with the beginner because their movements are so predictable. I've seen this in fencing, taekwondo, and karate, and it's a mixture of hilarious, impressive, and sad all at once.
If you're really good, you can toy around like that even with people who're quite proficient. I haven't seen it myself, but my sifu said that his teacher, grandmaster Al Dacascos, who's a first generation martial arts hall of famer, really is that good in his sixties, and on the wikipedia page of Kenshiro Abbe, it says that he recalled how his own kendo instructor, a 75 year old tenth dan (back when tenth dans in kendo actually still existed) couldn't be touched by any of the students or younger instructors.
Are you assuming it can't be shielded against? That seems unlikely. And if you can catch your opponent before he casts any shields there are easier ways to kill someone.
You would need to always have a shield up.
For example? Most purpose-built spells are in the form of a bolt that you have time to see and dodge.
Yes... this is a fact of combat. Not sure why you said this.
"Accio frontal lobe."
Or "Imperio, kill yourself."
Or for that matter "Obliviate."
Edit: Actually, I'm pretty sure Somnium is invisible. It doesn't kill immediately, of course, but that's easily rectified.
Might have the same sort of problem as partial Transfiguration has for everyone other than Harry: only works on a Whole Object and not on parts thereof. Your frontal lobe, or even your brain, might not be considered a separate object by whatever is responsible for making magic work.
Personally, I doubt that Charms and free Transfiguration are alike in that sense, but even if they are we have Word of McGonagall that it's possible to Transfigure just your skin or hair. Apparently human bodies are subdivided, according to the idea of Forms.
Not in what we have seen so far. IIRC, neither Quirrell nor Dumbledore have pre-cast shields in TSPE, which (IIRC) is the only piece of serious action by competent people in MoR. I don't remember canon well, but I would have noticed consistent pre-cast shields.
This is the same idea as hover charm.
Imperio can be resisted.
No idea how obliviate works, so maybe.
But all 3 are spells with instantaneous effect. I think/agree that spells with instantaneous effect are overpowered. But the fact is that we haven't seen anyone use or mention such ways of killing, which makes me think that they must somehow be impossible. Hence the initial question.
Funny thing about the combat in TSPE, we get this little digression:
And a little later,
Quirrell (and presumably Dumbledore) are on the level above where they have to worry about shielding against anyone but an equal.
And do I really have to go back through Self-Actualization and come up with the list of times the bullies and Tonks had pre-cast Protegos before they entered combat?
Yes, this is a change from canon. Mainly because magical combat was actually given some thought in MoR.
Except a lot faster and with less expenditure of energy. Rather than bouncing someone off the ceiling- which seems difficult to do hard enough to instantly kill a wizard (who can survive a lot more blunt trauma than Muggles)- you just rip their brain out their eyesockets.
As far as I know, the only word on that we have in MoR is "Powerful wizards are not so easy to Imperius," which leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
Other than Patronus 2.0, it is explicitly stated to be unblockable by people who would know.
I'm talking about Wingardium Leviosa.