Viliam_Bur comments on Our Phyg Is Not Exclusive Enough - Less Wrong

25 [deleted] 14 April 2012 09:08PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (513)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Anatoly_Vorobey 16 April 2012 06:44:23AM 27 points [-]

Because people on LW are weird. Instead of discussing natural and sane topics, such as cute kittens, iPhone prices, politics, horoscopes, celebrities, sex, et cetera, they talk abour crazy stuff like thinking machines and microscopic particles. Someone should do them a favor, turn off their computers, and buy them a few beers, so that normal people can stop being afraid of them.

No, that isn't it. LW isn't at all special in that respect - a huge number of specialized communities exist on the net which talk about "crazy stuff", but no one suspects them of being phygs. Your self-deprecating description is a sort of applause lights for LW that's not really warranted.

Because LW is trying to change the way people think, and that is scary. Things like that are OK only when the school system is doing it, because the school system is accepted by the majority. Books are usually also accepted, but only if you borrow them from a public library.

No, that isn't it. Every self-help book (of which there's a huge industry, and most of which are complete crap) is "trying to change the way people think", and nobody sees that as weird. The Khan academy is challenging the school system, and nobody thinks they're phyggish. Attempts to change the way people think are utterly commonplace, both small-scale and large-scale. And the part about books and public libraries is just weird (what?).

Because people on LW pretend they know some things better that everyone else, and that's an open challenge that someone should go and kick their butts, preferably literally.

Unwarranted applause lights again. Everybody pretends they know some things better than everyone else. Certainly any community does that rallies around experts on some particular topic. With "preferably literally" you cross over into the whining victimhood territory.

What's worse, people on LW have the courage to disagree even with some popular people, and that's pretty much insane.

The self-pandering here is particularly strong, almost middle-school grade stuff.

You've done a very poor job trying to explain why LW is accused of being phyggish.

There are no known examples of families broken when a family member refuses to submit to eternal knowledge of the Scriptures. [...] There are no known examples of violence or blackmail towards a former LW participant who decided to stop reading LW. [...] Minus the typical internet procrastination, there are no known examples of people who have lost years of their time and thousands of dollars, ruined their social and professional lives in their blind following of the empty promises LW gave them.

This, on the other hand, is a great, very strong point that everyone who finds themselves wary of (perceived or actual) phyggishness on LW should remind themselves of. I'm thinking of myself in particular, and thank you for this strong reminder, so forcefully phrased. I have to be doing something wrong, since I frequently ponder about this or that comment on LW that seems to exemplify phyggish thinking to me, but I never counter to myself with something like what I just quoted.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 16 April 2012 09:33:48AM 18 points [-]

Thanks for comments. What I wrote was exaggerated, written under strong emotions, when I realized that the whole phyg discussion does not make sense, because there is no real harm, only some people made nervous by some pattern matching. So I tried to list the patterns which match... and then those which don't.

My assumption is that there are three factors which together make the bad impression; separately they are less harmful. Being only "weird" is pretty normal. Being "weird + thorough", for example memorizing all Star Trek episodes, is more disturbing, but it only seems to harm the given individual. Majority will make fun of such individuals, they are seen as at the bottom of pecking order, and they kind of accept it.

The third factor is when someone refuses to accept the position at the bottom. It is the difference between saying "yeah, we read sci-fi about parallel universes, and we know it's not real, ha-ha silly us" and saying "actually, our intepretation of quantum physics is right, and you are wrong, that's the fact, no excuses". This is the part that makes people angry. You are allowed to take the position of authority only if you are a socially accepted authority. (A university professor is allowed to speak about quantum physics in this manner, a CEO is allowed to speak about money this way, a football champion is allowed to speak about football this way, etc.) This is breaking a social rule, and it has consequences.

Every self-help book (of which there's a huge industry, and most of which are complete crap) is "trying to change the way people think", and nobody sees that as weird.

A self-help book is safe. A self-help organization, not so much. (I mean an organization of people trying to change themselves, such as Alcoholics Anonymous, not a self-help publishing/selling company.)

The Khan academy is challenging the school system, and nobody thinks they're phyggish.

They are supplementing the school system, not criticizing it. The schools can safely ignore them. Khan Academy is admired by some people, but generally it remains at the bottom of the pecking order. This would change for example if they started openly criticizing the school system, and telling people to take their children away from schools.

Generally I think that when people talk about phygs, the reason is that their instinct is saying: "inside of your group, a strong subgroup is forming". A survival reaction is to call attention of the remaining group members to destroy this subgroup together before it becomes strong enough. You can avoid this reaction if the subgroup signals weakness, or if it signals loyalty to the currect group leadership; in both cases, the subgroup does not threaten existing order.

Assuming this instinct is real, we can't change it; we can just avoid triggering the reaction. How exactly? One way is to signal harmlessness; but this seems incompatible with our commitment to truth and the spirit of tsuyoku naritai. Other way is to fall below radar by using an obscure technical speach; but this seems incompatible with our goal of raising the sanity waterline (we must be comprehensive to public). Yet other way is to signal loyalty to the regime, such as Singularity Institute publishing in peer-reviewed journals. Even this is difficult, because irrationality is very popular, so by attacking irrationality we inevitable attack many popular things. We should choose our battles wisely. But this is the way I would prefer. Perhaps there is yet another way that I forgot.

Comment author: Pentashagon 04 February 2013 07:20:14PM -2 points [-]

Thanks for comments. What I wrote was exaggerated, written under strong emotions, when I realized that the whole phyg discussion does not make sense, because there is no real harm, only some people made nervous by some pattern matching. So I tried to list the patterns which match... and then those which don't.

If the phyg-meme gets really bad we can just rename the site "lessharmful.com".