Jonathan_Elmer comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 16, chapter 85 - Less Wrong

9 Post author: FAWS 18 April 2012 02:30AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (1106)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Daniel_Starr 20 April 2012 11:37:09PM *  29 points [-]

HPMOR is making me rethink human nature -- because of how people react to it. This is a story full of cunning disguises, and readers seem reluctant to see past those disguises. RL rkcerffrq chmmyrzrag ng ubj many readers took forever to decide Quirrell = Voldemort; I think I now know why.

I suggest that humans are instinctive "observation consequentialists." That is, we think someone is competent and good if the observed results of their actions are benign. We weigh what we observe much more strongly than what we merely deduce. If we personally see their actions work out well, we'll put aside a great deal of indirect evidence for their incompetence or vileness.

In HPMOR, Quirrell's directly observed actions are mostly associated with Harry getting to be more of what he thinks he wants. Even rescuing Bellatrix amounts to Harry getting to save a broken lovelorn creature in terms of what we directly observe. To believe Quirrell evil we have to bring in all kinds of expected consequences to weigh against those immediate positive observations.

Does the resistance to saying Quirrell=Voldemort maybe reflect a broader unwillingness to overlook what we directly witness in favor of abstract deduction? If it does, this implies some interesting predictions about human behavior:

  • if you can be kind and moderate in your personal behavior, you can get away with incredible amounts of institutionally-mediated violence and extremism, especially to anyone who feels like they "know" you. Hypothesis: the most dangerous people are those who can give us the illusion of "knowing" them while they command an institution whose internal operations we don't see.

  • More generally, an institution "wired" to do us harm can get away with it much longer than an individual doing it personally and directly. Faceless corporate evil, faceless societal evil, and faceless government evil are much more deadly than our emotional impulses realize. Hypothesis: we are biased to confuse the institutions with our attitude toward their leaders, or to refuse to act against the institutions because of the outward manners of their leaders.

  • if this 'observation consequentialism' bias is heuristic, then maybe it evolved as an anti-gossip function. In that case we should expect that people are too quick to believe outrageous things about people they can't observe. Hypothesis: the further away someone is from your understanding, the less likely you are to think of them as mostly a typical human being, and the quicker you are to believe them a saint, a monster, or something similarly exciting.

  • And, alas for EY, hypothesis: telling a story about cunning disguises, in which the protagonist of the story does not see through those disguises, is almost always going to lead to lots of readers also not seeing through those disguises.

Comment author: Jonathan_Elmer 22 April 2012 01:44:26AM 10 points [-]

I think the reason I was reluctant to accept that Quirrell is Voldemort is that Harry is a lot smarter than me and he trusted Quirrell.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 25 April 2012 04:31:16AM *  13 points [-]

That's actually a surprisingly good reason. In real life, the best rationalist you know is probably not a character in a story and feeling a sense of opposing pressure when you disagree with them is probably a pretty good idea.

Comment author: Vaniver 22 April 2012 07:07:03AM 5 points [-]

This should cause you to update down your view of Aumann's Agreement theorem.

(I am reminded of many professional scientists tricked by charlatans when magicians were not fooled- because the scientists knew where to look for truth, and the magicians knew where to look for lies.)

Comment author: Jonathan_Elmer 27 April 2012 12:16:10AM 2 points [-]

I have updated by learning of it's existence.

Comment author: pedanterrific 22 April 2012 07:10:56AM 2 points [-]

This should cause you to update down your view of Aumann's Agreement theorem.

Could you explain what you mean by this? I'm having trouble parsing "update down your view of".

Comment author: Vaniver 22 April 2012 07:25:48AM 7 points [-]

Could you explain what you mean by this? I'm having trouble parsing "update down your view of".

Aumann's Agreement theorem is a neat true result about fictional entities. Its applicability to real entities is subjective, and based on how close you think the real entities are to the fictional entities. Increasing that distance makes AAT less relevant to how you live your life, and increasing that distance is what I mean by "update down your view of."

My feeling is that those entities are really distant, to the point where AAT should not seriously alter your beliefs. "I trusted X because Y trusted X" is a recipe for disaster if you trust Y because of different domain-specific competence, rather than their deep knowledge of X.

Comment author: pedanterrific 22 April 2012 07:57:30AM *  5 points [-]

Right, ok. I'd already thought that AAT is essentially irrelevant to actual human behavior, so I was confused what brought it up.

ETA: No idea why you were downvoted so far.

Comment author: ciphergoth 11 September 2013 10:25:38AM 1 point [-]

On fictional evidence?

Comment author: thomblake 25 April 2012 08:41:02PM 0 points [-]

Harry is eleven.

Comment author: Multiheaded 10 May 2012 02:41:40PM 0 points [-]

I'm twenty-one, and I'm hell of a lot dumber than him in every aspect - despite having an IQ in the top one percent of humanity (135).

Comment author: thomblake 11 May 2012 02:13:18PM 1 point [-]

I generally expect that learning who to trust is something that comes from age and experience more than IQ.