RobertLumley comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 16, chapter 85 - Less Wrong

9 Post author: FAWS 18 April 2012 02:30AM

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Comment author: RobertLumley 17 September 2012 01:23:26AM *  3 points [-]

From chapter 74: "Even so, the most terrible ritual known to me demands only a rope which has hanged a man and a sword which has slain a woman; and that for a ritual which promised to summon Death itself - though what is truly meant by that I do not know and do not care to discover, since it was also said that the counterspell to dismiss Death had been lost."

I missed this the first time I read it, but to me, it seems to pretty clearly refer to creating a dementor - Quirrell doesn't understand what it means because he doesn't know about the true patronus charm. Anyone have any theories on how this will be used, or if I'm off entirely? I can't imagine Harry creating a dementor, and Harry never seems to realize what this actually means. But Quirrell seems like he would if Harry ever told him about the true patronus form.

http://predictionbook.com/predictions/8287

http://predictionbook.com/predictions/8286

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 17 September 2012 08:48:49AM *  6 points [-]

Having just read most of Lawrence Watt-Evans' Ethsar series, I recognize now this as a reference to the spell of Seething Death.

Comment author: MugaSofer 18 September 2012 11:34:10AM *  0 points [-]

Darn, I was sure it referred to the secret origin of the dementors, and/or the deathly hallows.

Oh well.

I suppose it was just a misdirection for (from?) this:

the chant of every ritual names that which is to be sacrificed, and that which is to be gained [...] always, in each element of the ritual, first is named that which is sacrificed, and then is said the use commanded of it.

Comment author: MugaSofer 18 September 2012 11:44:42AM 0 points [-]

... And now I've found this and don't know what to think.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 18 September 2012 11:49:27AM 3 points [-]

There's no necessary incompatibility. The specific ingredients may have been chosen to be a homage and a reference to Lawrence Watt-Evans Seething Death and yet the described ritual can still contain foreshadowing for HPMoR's plot as well.

Comment author: MugaSofer 18 September 2012 12:06:01PM *  0 points [-]

I suppose. I'm less worried about the ingredients as the "missing counterspell". It just seems too central to the plot - I can't see the whole story being based on something that's a reference to something else. As I said, I'm still updating on the possible connection to the opening paragraph.

Comment author: Quirinus 25 September 2012 07:00:03PM 4 points [-]

I missed this the first time I read it, but to me, it seems to pretty clearly refer to creating a dementor - Quirrell doesn't understand what it means because he doesn't know about the true patronus charm.

I think it was implied that he somehow deduced that the dementors are a physical manifestation of death, possibly even before Harry's showcase of the true Patronus spell.

"No," Professor Quirrell said, sounding rather severe. "You don't tell us why, Mr. Potter, you simply tell us that we are not to know. If you wish to devise a hint, you do so carefully, at leisure, not in the midst of conversation."

Harry nodded.

"But," said the Headmaster. "But, but what am I to tell the Ministry? You can't just lose a Dementor!"

"Tell them I ate it," said Professor Quirrell, causing Harry to choke on the soda he had unthinkingly raised to his lips. "I don't mind. Shall we head on back, Mr. Potter?"

"I ate it". Eat death. Death eater.

Quirrell can't perform the true patronus because he isn't as hopeful and positive about the nature of humanity and the vanquishing of death. As dumbledore put it, he doesn't live, but cowers of fear from death.

And then, more interestingly, in chapter 53, when giving Bellatrix the death eater password:

"Those who do not fear the darkness..." murmured Bellatrix.

The snake hissed, "Will be conssumed by it."

"Will be consumed by it," whispered the chill voice. Harry didn't particularly want to think about how Professor Quirrell had gotten that password. His brain, which thought about it anyway, suggested that it had probably involved a Death Eater, a quiet isolated place, and some lead-pipe Legilimency.

Compare it to the plan Harry's dark side came up with on Chapter 81:

Say that, to set up the if-then expectation, and wait for people to understand and laugh. Then speak the fatal truth; and when the Aurors' Patronuses winked out to prove the point, either people's anticipations of the mindless void, or Harry's threat of its destruction, would make the Dementor obey. Those who had sought to compromise with the darkness would be consumed by it.

That's way too nice of a parallelism in prose for it to be a coincidence.

Comment author: MugaSofer 17 September 2012 08:02:23AM *  1 point [-]

... Why would Quirrell create a dementor?

Considering he is especially weak to them, and the one Harry destroyed vowed to hunt him down as soon as it saw him.

Unless, of course, it gives you a personalized Deathly Hallow. Hmm.

Comment author: RobertLumley 17 September 2012 02:52:14PM 1 point [-]

Voldemort used dementors in his army in cannon. That was my thinking.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 17 September 2012 04:28:12PM 3 points [-]

That is a marvelous image, which is making me giggle.
Sadly, I suppose you probably meant "canon."

Comment author: RobertLumley 17 September 2012 05:38:15PM 1 point [-]

Hehehe, of course.

Comment author: MugaSofer 17 September 2012 03:43:30PM *  1 point [-]

Ah, right.

Suddenly, Harry teaching Qurrelmort how to reduce Dementor effects using the memory of the Stars is looking less wise.

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