likeananon comments on A Kick in the Rationals: What hurts you in your LessWrong Parts? - Less Wrong

24 Post author: sixes_and_sevens 25 April 2012 12:12PM

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Comment author: [deleted] 25 April 2012 06:58:11PM *  1 point [-]

Does

The most astounding fact about the universe is the knowledge that everything we perceive—color, sound, and even energy itself—is a process that involves our consciousness.

hurt you in your LessWrong Parts? (the article's conclusion)

Comment author: faul_sname 25 April 2012 08:20:26PM 6 points [-]

Only one word needs to be added for it to be accurate (if unexciting).

The most astounding fact about the universe is the knowledge that everything we consciously perceive—color, sound, and even energy itself—is a process that involves our consciousness.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 April 2012 08:48:45PM 0 points [-]

The most astounding fact about the universe is the fact that our conscious perceptions—color, sound, and even energy itself—do not exist outside our consciousness.

Pretty exciting the first time it occurs to you? It's an article in "Psychology Today. com" This is admittedly beside the point of the main post.

Comment author: Alsadius 26 April 2012 01:24:35AM 5 points [-]

Everything we consciously see is seen through our consciousness.

That barely qualifies as insight when you're high.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 April 2012 04:41:59PM *  0 points [-]

You forgot the "do not exist outside your consciousness" part. Or is that wrong? The upvotes on your post tell me I'm missing something... but to me what you quoted is different, and yes, a lot less exciting, than what i quoted?

Comment author: Alsadius 27 April 2012 12:22:32AM 0 points [-]

It was mocking, but I think basically accurate. Light has wavelengths and sound has pressure waves whether we're there to observe them or not. Even if you want to argue that it's not really "colour" or "sound", who cares? The only part of it that's actually created by our consciousness is the conscious appreciation for what already exists.

Comment author: faul_sname 25 April 2012 09:04:55PM 2 points [-]

I recall the realization that consciousness was a physical process as being much more exciting than the realization that I only experience my conscious thoughts.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 April 2012 10:53:37PM 0 points [-]

than the realization that I only experience my conscious thoughts.

No, I was talking about a different realization.

that our conscious perceptions do not exist outside our consciousness.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 April 2012 09:09:41PM *  3 points [-]

...our conscious perceptions ... do not exist outside our consciousness.

Depending on what 'conscious perceptions' is supposed to mean that's either completely the opposite of astounding or just false.

Though on second thought I suppose the realization that perception is a physical process occurring inside your skull is exciting in a certain sense!

Comment author: chaosmosis 26 April 2012 02:03:54AM -1 points [-]

No, it's implicit the way it is.

Perception entails consciousness, unless you have a weird definition of perception.

Comment author: faul_sname 26 April 2012 02:14:04AM 11 points [-]

Look up blindsight. Perception without conscious processing.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 April 2012 02:33:41PM 1 point [-]

A definition of perception according to which insects have it doesn't sound too weird to me.

Comment author: chaosmosis 26 April 2012 07:59:34PM -1 points [-]

[Human] perception entails consciousness.

There.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 April 2012 11:36:01AM 1 point [-]

This could be checked giving a pinprick to someone in a coma while scanning their brain. (And I'm being generous and not assuming a definition of consciousness which excludes healthy people in deep dreamless sleep, because if perception entailed consciousness in that sense, alarm clocks would work much less reliably.)

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 25 April 2012 07:28:13PM 5 points [-]

Not as much as "physics is wrong because our brains are magical because I say so", but yes, it does.

That our perceptions are a process that involves our consciousness (however you want to define that) is, technically, a fact about the universe, but only in the same way "my cat's breath smells like cat food" is a fact about the universe.

The perceptions fact (insofar as it is a fact) is more of a statement about human cognition than it is about the universe. It may very well be the statement he finds most astounding about the universe, but it's not the core of the paradigm-busting central theory of everything he purports it to be.