Multiheaded comments on Rationality Quotes May 2012 - Less Wrong

6 Post author: OpenThreadGuy 01 May 2012 11:37PM

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Comment author: Multiheaded 16 May 2012 12:31:44PM *  7 points [-]

I've been looking up some American people (radical activists/left-wing theorists/etc) whom I knew little about but felt surprised about how they're a byword and evil incarnate to every right-wing blogger out there. I don't have any political or moral judgment about what I've read in regards to those (or at least let's pretend that I don't), but incidentally I found a nice quote:

If people feel they don’t have the power to change a situation, they stop thinking about it.

Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals

Comment author: TheOtherDave 16 May 2012 02:31:20PM 4 points [-]

Relatedly, if we don't want to think about a situation, we frequently convince ourselves that we're powerless to change it.

Less relatedly, I am growing increasingly aware of the gulf between what is implied by talking about "people" in the first person plural, and talking about "people" in the third person plural.

Comment author: Multiheaded 16 May 2012 12:46:29PM *  8 points [-]

And here's some rather... more spicy stuff from him:

The seventh rule of the ethics of means and ends is that generally success or failure is a mighty determinant of ethics. The judgment of history leans heavily on the outcome of success or failure; it spells the difference between the traitor and the patriotic hero. There can be no such thing as a successful traitor, for if one succeeds he becomes a founding father.

The ninth rule of the ethics of means and ends is that any effective means is automatically judged by the opposition as being unethical.

In this world laws are written for the lofty aim of "the common good" and then acted out in life on the basis of the common greed. In this world irrationality clings to man like his shadow so that the right things get done for the wrong reasons—afterwards, we dredge up the right reasons for justification. It is a world not of angels but of angles, where men speak of moral principles but act on power principles; a world where we are always moral and our enemies always immoral; a world where "reconciliation" means that when one side gets the power and the other side gets reconciled to it, then we have reconciliation.

Always remember the first rule of power tactics: Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have. The second rule is: Never go outside the experience of your people. When an action or tactic is outside the experience of the people, it results in confusion, fear, and retreat. [...] The third rule is: Whenever possible go outside of the experience of the enemy. Here you want to cause confusion, fear, and retreat.

Comment author: TimS 19 May 2012 08:58:00PM *  4 points [-]

Alinsky is interesting to me because it seems like he was one of the first to notice a new, likely to be effective method of social change - and he used up all the effectiveness of the technique.

I wouldn't expect non-violent protest (in America) to be capable of that kind of social change in the future, because those in power have learned how to deal with it effectively (mass arrest for minor infractions and an absolute refusal to engage in political grandstanding). By this point, mass protests are quite ineffective at creating social change here in the US (consider the relatively pointlessness of the Occupy movement)

I'm sure there are other examples of techniques of social change becoming totally ineffective as authorities learned how to respond better, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Comment author: Multiheaded 18 May 2012 09:53:59AM *  2 points [-]

I'd also like to mention that the American Right's treatment of Alinsky is really depressing. Just one random quote: "Alinsky got what he wanted in the form of 90% illegitimacy rates among American blacks and poverty wholly dominated by single mothers."

Really? A guy who taught little people how to stand up for themselves in ruthless tribal politics... somehow single-handedly (or with his evil college student henchmen) caused a complicated social problem that existed since Segregation's end - instead of, I dunno, making communities more unified and more conscious of the war that is life (like trade unions become with good non-dogmatic leadership)?

(Another stunning lie: "Alinsky’s entire adult life was devoted to destroying capitalism in America — an economic system he considered to be oppressive and unjust."

He talked of working within the system and changing it slowly and patiently all the time - for moral as well as tactical reasons. "Those who enshrine the poor or Have-Nots are as guilty as other dogmatists and just as dangerous", he wrote. And: "The political panaceas of the past[2], such as the revolutions in Russia and China, have become the same old stuff under a different name... We have permitted a suicidal situation to unfold wherein revolution and communism have become one. These pages are committed to splitting this political atom, separating this exclusive identification of communism with revolution."

"Let us in the name of radical pragmatism not forget that in our system with all its repressions we can still speak out and denounce the administration, attack its policies, work to build an opposition political base. True, there is government harassment, but there still is that relative freedom to fight. I can attack my government, try to organize to change it. That's more than I can do in Moscow, Peking, or Havana. Remember the reaction of the Red Guard to the "cultural revolution" and the fate of the Chinese college students.[1] Just a few of the violent episodes of bombings or a courtroom shootout that we have experienced here would have resulted in a sweeping purge and mass executions in Russia, China, or Cuba. Let's keep some perspective.")

Sadly, even M.M. chimed in when that hysteria was at its peak around the 2008 elections, with Obama's supposed methodological connection to the evil treasonous commie terrorist trumpeted everywhere on the "fringe" websites. And that's the kind of people most likely to boast of their reasoning and objectivity online?

Mencius also blasted the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) who used Gandhi's nonviolent tactics to attack the very literal Ku Klux Klan rule in Mississippi during the so-called Freedom Summer, risking life and limb, and a small part of whose members formed the semi-violent terrorist group Weather Underground a decade later.

[1] Yep, the "Cultural Revolution" was less a government-initiated purge in the image of 1937 than it was a little civil war between two slightly different factions of zealots.

2] For a brilliant example of this madness dressed as conservatism, just look at this idiot. He took Alinsky's sardonic reference to those revolutions' hype as "panaceas" as a sign of approval!

America, Fuck Yeah.

P.S. To be fair, here's a voice of sanity from some libertarian dude, who has the misfortune of posting at a site that even Moldbug rightly called a useless dump.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 19 May 2012 04:51:06AM *  3 points [-]

A guy who taught little people how to stand up for themselves in ruthless tribal politics...

Your confusing standing up for oneself with mass defecting from social conventions. The fact that modern blacks have learned to confuse the two is a large part of the reason why they're stuck as an underclass.

somehow single-handedly (or with his evil college student henchmen) caused a complicated social problem that existed since Segregation's end

It wasn't nearly as bad at segregation's end as it is now.

instead of, I dunno, making communities more unified and more conscious of the war that is life

Yes, that's why black communities today consider members who study hard or try to integrate into mainstream society (outside of racial advocacy) as traitors who are "acting white".

Comment author: Multiheaded 19 May 2012 09:01:40AM *  -1 points [-]

I don't know much about any of that, but blaming the first on Alinsky sounds just ridiculous (as well as evokes nasty associations for people who are conscious of antiblack rhetoric throughout U.S. history). Have you looked at his activities? And do you think he only worked with blacks, or resented whites, or what?

http://www.progress.org/2003/alinsky2.htm

The last one might be exaggerated, too. Are successful (non-criminal) black businessmen hated and despised in their communities?

(Overall, you sound a touch mind-killed.)

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 19 May 2012 08:17:42PM 3 points [-]

I don't know much about any of that, but blaming the first on Alinsky sounds just ridiculous

True, I was exaggerating by blaming him for the effects of the movement he was a part of.

And do you think he only worked with blacks,

No, and I'm sure he did some similar damage to some white communities as well.

Are successful (non-criminal) black businessmen hated and despised in their communities?

Well, depends on how they succeeded (someone who succeeded in sports or music is more accepted then someone who succeeded through business).

(Overall, you sound a touch mind-killed.)

What about yourself? At the risk of engaging in internet cold reading I think you were so scarred by what you perceive as "right wing technocracy" as expressed by Moldbug and some of his fans on LW that you're desperately looking for any ideology/movement that seems strong enough to oppose it.

Comment author: Multiheaded 20 May 2012 08:38:32AM *  2 points [-]

Replied elsewhere.

At the risk of engaging in internet cold reading I think you were so scarred by what you perceive as "right wing technocracy" as expressed by Moldbug and some of his fans on LW that you're desperately looking for any ideology/movement that seems strong enough to oppose it.

Well, there's a grain of truth to that, but I'll try not to compromise my ethics in doing so. I'd put it like this: I have my ideology-as-religion (utopian socialism, for lack of a better term) and, like with any other, I try to balance its function of formalizing intuitions versus its downsides of blinding me with dogma - but I'm open to investigating all kinds of ideologies-as-politics to see how they measure against my values, in their tools and their aims.

Also, I consider Moldbug to be relatively innocent in the grand scheme. He says some rather useful things, and anyways there are others whose thoughts are twisted far worse by that worldview I loathe; he's simply a good example (IMO) of a brilliant person exhibiting symptoms of that menace.

Comment author: [deleted] 22 May 2012 03:49:06PM *  0 points [-]

My good sir if you are a utopian socialist, it unfortunately seems to me that you are striving to treat a fungal infection while the patient is dying of cancer.

Comment author: Multiheaded 22 May 2012 05:09:38PM 1 point [-]

I said it's my ideal of society, not that I'd start collectivizing everything tomorrow! Didn't you link that story, Manna? If you approve of its ideas, then you're at least partly a socialist too - in my understanding of the term. Also, which problems would you call "cancer", specifically?

Comment author: [deleted] 22 May 2012 06:37:34PM *  7 points [-]

I said it's my ideal of society, not that I'd start collectivizing everything tomorrow!

Oh I didn't mean to imply you would! But surely you would like to move our current society towards that at some (slow or otherwise) rate, or at least learn enough about the world to eventually get a good plan of doing so.

If you approve of its ideas, then you're at least partly a socialist too

Nearly every human is I think. Socialism and its variants tap into primal parts of our mind and its ethical and political intuitions. And taking seriously most of our stated ethics one is hard pressed to not end up a libertarian or a communist or even a fascist. Fortunately most people don't think too hard about politics. I don't want the conversation to go down this path too far though since I fear the word "socialist" is a problematic one.

Also, which problems would you call "cancer", specifically?

Specifically the great power structures opposing moves towards your ideal. It almost dosen't matter which ideal, since those that I see would oppose most change and I have a hard time considering them benevolent. Even milquetoast regular leftism thinks itself fighting a few such forces, and I would actually agree they are there. You don't need to agree with their bogeyman, surely you see some much more potent forces shaping our world, that don't seem inherently interested in your ideals, that are far more powerful than.... the writer of a photocopied essay you picked up on the street?

For Moldbug himself points out, since the barrier to entry to writing a online blog is so low, absent other evidence, you should take him precisely as seriously as a person distributing such photocopied essays. How many people have read anything by Moldbug? Of those how many agree? Of those how many are likely to act? What if you take the entire "alternative" or "dissident" or "new" right and add these people together. Do you get million people? Do you even get 100 thousand? And recall these are dissidents! By the very nature of society outcasts, malcontent's and misfits are attracted to such thinking.

While I have no problem with you reading right wing blogs, even a whole lot of them, since I certainly do, I feel the need to point out, that you cite some pretty obscure ones that even I have heard about let alone followed, dosen't that perhaps tell you that you may be operating under a distorted view or intuition of how popular these ideas are? By following their links and comment section your brain is tricked into seeing a different reality from the one that exists, take a survey of political opinion into your hands and check the scale of the phenomena you find troubling.

Putting things into perspective, It seems a waste to lose sleep over them, does it not? Many of them are intelligent and consistent, but then so is Will Newsome and I don't spend much time worrying about everlasting damnation. If you want anything that can be described as "utopian" or "socialist" your work is cut out for you, you should be wondering how to move mountains, not stomp on molehills.

Comment author: Multiheaded 23 May 2012 10:44:06AM *  4 points [-]

That's a good comment, thanks. You've slightly misunderstood my feelings and my fears, though. I'll write a proper response.

In brief, I fear alt-right/technocratic ideas not because they're in any way popular or "viral" at present, but because I have a nasty gut feeling that they - in a limited sense - do reflect "reality" best of all, that by most naive pragmatist reasoning they follow from facts of life, and that more and more people for whom naive reasoning is more important than social conventions will start to adopt such thinking as soon as they're alerted to its possibility.

And, crucially, in the age of the internet and such, there will be more and more such under-socialized, smart people growing up and thinking more independently - I fear it could be like the spread of simplified Marxism through underdeveloped and humiliated 3rd-world countries, and with worse consequences. See the Alinsky quote above - "revolution and communism have become one". If rationalism and techno-fascism become "one" like that, the whole world might suffer for it.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 May 2012 05:39:12AM *  1 point [-]

Specifically the great power structures opposing moves towards your ideal. It almost dosen't matter which ideal, since those that I see would oppose most change

Keep in mind that while every improvement is a change, most potential changes are not improvements and for most ideals, attempting to implement them leads to total disaster.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 May 2012 02:06:35PM 0 points [-]

You left these quotes unsourced:

"Alinsky got what he wanted in the form of 90% illegitimacy rates among American blacks and poverty wholly dominated by single mothers."

"Alinsky’s entire adult life was devoted to destroying capitalism in America — an economic system he considered to be oppressive and unjust."

Comment author: Multiheaded 16 May 2012 01:21:45PM *  1 point [-]

Oh lawd!

After organizing FIGHT (an acronym for Freedom, Independence [subsequently Integration], God, Honor, Today) in Rochester, New York,[9] Alinsky once threatened to stage a "fart in" to disrupt the sensibilities of the city's establishment at a Rochester Philharmonic concert. FIGHT members were to consume large quantities of baked beans after which, according to author Nicholas von Hoffman, "FIGHT's increasingly gaseous music-loving members would hie themselves to the concert hall where they would sit expelling gaseous vapors with such noisy velocity as to compete with the woodwinds."[10] Satisfied with the reaction to his threat, Alinsky would later threaten a "piss in" at Chicago O'Hare Airport. Alinsky planned to arrange for large numbers of well dressed African Americans to occupy the urinals and toilets at O'Hare for as long as it took to bring the city to the bargaining table. According to Alinsky, once again the threat alone was sufficient to produce results.[10] Conceding that his tactics were "absurd," the community activist rejected the contention that they were frivolous, arguing "[w]hat oppressed person doesn't want, literally or figuratively, to shit on his oppressors? [At the Rochester Philharmonic] was the closest chance they'd have. Such tactics aren't just cute; they can be useful in driving your opponent up the wall. Very often the most ridiculous tactic can prove the most effective."

Now just imagine what Anonymous could've done today with him around!

Alinsky planned to arrange for large numbers of well dressed African Americans to occupy the urinals and toilets at O'Hare for as long as it took to bring the city to the bargaining table.

I weakly suspect that this was in fact the inspiration for /b/'s infamous "Pool's Closed" raids.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 18 May 2012 02:55:05AM 5 points [-]

It's amazing what you can accomplish if you can convince a large enough group of people that defecting from social norms is a good idea.

Comment author: Multiheaded 18 May 2012 11:11:04AM *  1 point [-]

Yep. Maybe we'd do well to experience something like that at least once and learn from it, either in an apolitical act or acting with one's preferred tribe. My BF is a friend/assistant of a weird Russian actionist group, so he knows a bit about this kind of stuff. He tells me it feels liberating in a way.

(On that note, Palahniuk-inspired fight clubs are also somewhat popular as a transgressive/liberating activity among Russian young men. There's graffiti advertizing one all around my middle-class neighbourhood. I'm not gonna try one, though; I can withstand some hardship but loathe physical pain.)

Comment author: khafra 18 May 2012 01:00:06PM 1 point [-]

If you're interested in the general idea, but don't want to just go to some basement and get beat up in an uncontrolled environment, Система Кадочникова works up in a slow and controlled manner to getting punched without having it bother you unduly; I think the training can invoke many of the same feelings (although I've never done an actual fight club for basically your reasons).

Comment author: Multiheaded 18 May 2012 01:23:54PM *  3 points [-]

Heh, thanks. I'd rather look into some more basic street-fighting classes, though. To tell the truth, martial arts scare me a little bit with how much spiritual dedication they demand.

I've got a few simple self-defence and outdoor survival lessons from a 3-month class I attended after high school, it was pretty neat. Then, half a year ago, when I got robbed at knifepoint by some homeless drunk, at least I didn't do anything stupid. He wasn't all that big and had a really tiny penknife, I had a very thick winter coat and in retrospect I could've stunned him with an uppercut - we practiced sudden attacks in the class, as the lesson was basically "A serious fight lasts for one blow"... but with the fear and the adrenaline and the darkness I perceived the knife to be about 20cm long - 3 times larger than it really was - and decided not to resist. He pressed me against a wall, told me to give my phone and dashed.

I went home, called the police, and to my surprise they got him that very night, as they had his picture from a drunken brawl before; he hadn't even pawned my phone. I was really calm and collected while dealing with the cops and all that (all in all, they sure surpassed my rather low expectations of the Russian police), but later I felt rather sick... a little like being raped, I presume. I got over it quickly, though; I feel a little sorry for that shit-stain and his inhuman life.

(By the way, that bit with the knife sure was funny in retrospect. When the cops showed me the evidence and asked to confirm it, I initially said something like "Well, yeah, the blade had the same shape... but it was at least two times bigger, I swear! Might he have another knife or something?" The detective was kinda amused.)

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 16 May 2012 01:06:49PM 1 point [-]

If people feel they don’t have the power to change a situation, they stop thinking about it.

Interpreted as a conditional statement this is almost certainly false (I completed a degree in political science even though half-way through I understood that me trying to achieve "positive change" was hopeless). What do you think he means? How could we test such a claim?

Comment author: Multiheaded 16 May 2012 01:12:01PM *  4 points [-]

One rather large-scale example, discussed in this community since the beginning of time: deathism and the general public's attitude (or lack thereof) to cryonics.

"You know, given human nature, if people got hit on the head by a baseball bat every week, pretty soon they would invent reasons why getting hit on the head with a baseball bat was a good thing." - Eliezer

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 16 May 2012 03:57:37PM 1 point [-]

Good example.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 16 May 2012 02:22:40PM 4 points [-]

I think the quote can be interpreted as likely to be true of many people rather than absolutely true of everyone.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 16 May 2012 03:58:26PM 2 points [-]

Yes, this appears to be the most charitable interpretation.