RolfAndreassen comments on A wild theist platonist appears, to ask about the path - Less Wrong

7 Post author: Hang 08 May 2012 11:23AM

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Comment author: RolfAndreassen 08 May 2012 06:19:54PM 10 points [-]

I believe in a deity, I believe in mathematical entities in the same way.

I don't understand what this means. Do you?

What does it mean to "believe in" the number 2, for example? And even among mathematical realists one does not usually find the belief that the number 2 is going to do anything; it won't reach into your life and provide you with greater two-ness, as it were. So if you believe in a god in the same way that you believe in the number 2, whatever that may be, what is the purpose of this entity? The number 2 has its uses; you can add it to itself and get 4. What similar operation can you perform on your god, such that the belief is a useful one?

Comment author: gRR 08 May 2012 08:12:34PM *  4 points [-]

What similar operation can you perform on your god, such that the belief is a useful one?

What a great question! Traditionally, the operations performed on a god are:

  • asking for goods and services
  • grounding morality on
  • ascribing mysterious feelings and special mind states to the influence of
  • giving thanks for blessings of existence
  • basing the feelings of security and purpose in life on
  • invoking as a semantic stopsign for metaphysical questions

None of these, except the last one, could be performed on a god-as-a-mathematical-like-entity, I think.

Comment author: [deleted] 09 May 2012 06:41:37PM *  4 points [-]

Actually I think grounding morality can be performed on a god-as-a-mathematical-like-entity if you wanted to. For certain settings of God you even get interesting and neat properties, which can be pretty useful (in a sense similar to this) if FAI is not near or possible and you question moral progress.

You can also use God to avoid certain kinds of blackmail and do other neat superrational tricks. Who knows it may even be the best implementation for this that we can currently build on some human brains.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 11 May 2012 03:35:49PM 2 points [-]

Who knows it may even be the best implementation for this that we can currently build on some human brains.

Though in practice the reason we have Jesus is so we can ask "What would Jesus do?", which is easier to answer than "What would the ideal rational agent with unlimited computational resources do?".

'Course, Jesus says "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."; I think we still have a moral obligation to figure out the theoretical foundations of justification for perfect agents.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 11 May 2012 03:51:25PM *  9 points [-]

Though in practice the reason we have Jesus is so we can ask "What would Jesus do?", which is easier to answer than "What would the ideal rational agent with unlimited computational resources do?".

In Stoicism, we call this type of person a sage. It is actually a very practical concept to make use of. During before-sleep meditation, I'll playback my entire day in fast-forward mentally, but alongside me I imagine a semi-transparent sage-me and I "watch" as our two paths diverge (with the sage-me living a perfectly virtuous life and me falling far short).

Comment author: Will_Newsome 11 May 2012 04:25:21PM *  3 points [-]

Interesting; I am annoyed and relieved that no Stoic seems to have nominated any particular historical person as a sage.

I don't think I could pull off that kind of meditation, due to my having too much structural uncertainty about ethics and meta-ethics. What's that Borges quote? "I have known that thing the Greeks knew not—uncertainty."

BTW random LW people here is the SEP on Stoicism.

I notice that like LessWrong the Stoics are big on Logos and instrumental rationality and related ethics but their (meta-)physics and theology strike me as fuzzy and underdeveloped.

Comment author: gRR 09 May 2012 06:56:50PM *  1 point [-]

Actually I think grounding morality can be performed on a god-as-a-mathematical-like-entity if you wanted to

For this, there'd have to be a well-defined God, provably unique up to isomorphism.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 11 May 2012 06:45:35PM 0 points [-]

Why so? How well-defined? I find it useful to base normative epistemic arguments off of the existence of Chaitin's omega, even though there isn't a unique omega and even though we barely know any bits of any of them. Similarly one could base moral arguments off of just the knowledge of the existence of a normative standard against which moral agents could be compared or by which moral agents could in theory be judged; postulating such a standard is itself a non-trivial meta-ethical position.

Comment author: gRR 11 May 2012 07:35:25PM 0 points [-]

I'm not sure exactly what point you wish to illustrate with the Chaitin's omega example. Yes, its value depends on the TM coding. But when a specific one is chosen, the value is unique.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 08 May 2012 08:28:04PM 0 points [-]

Well, I can certainly ask the number two for goods and services, so if that's a useful operation to perform, there ya go.

My chances of receiving those goods and services won't increase if I do so, but that's something else again.

Similarly, I can ascribe mysterious feelings and special mind states to the influence of a mathematical structure, thank it for the blessings of existence, base my feelings of security and purpose in life on it, and (as you note) invoke it to avert metaphysical questions.

I admit, I don't quite understand how to ground morality on a mathematical structure, but then I don't quite understand how to ground morality on a traditional god, either. (I recognize that many people claim to do this.)

I've never quite understood how grounding morality on a traditional god is supposed to work.

Comment author: gRR 08 May 2012 08:36:02PM 7 points [-]

Well then, you could also multiply gods by constants and add them together, producing a vector space over a divine basis.

Grounding morality works straightforwardly, I think: God said thou must not kill, love thy neighbour, etc.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 08 May 2012 09:23:32PM 1 point [-]

Well, yes, I understand that various commands, preferences, etc. are ascribed to gods, and that followers of those gods attempt to obey those commands and satisfy those preferences.

I've just never understood what morality has to do with any of that.

I mean, sure, presumably a suitably knowledgable (let alone omniscient) god is capable of giving moral commands, in that it would know what the moral things to do are, in the same sense that it is capable of telling me what stocks to purchase in order to maximize my earnings, or how most efficiently to breed cows. But to conclude that therefore wealth, morality, or cow-breeding is grounded on god (in a way that poverty, immorality, and cow-genocide, for example, are not) has always seemed odd to me.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 11 May 2012 06:37:46PM 2 points [-]

(Divine command theory, where you obey God because He's God as such (and not because He's God and He commands things because they're good), is not the most popular way to tie God into your meta-ethics, and it has various semantic problems. In better-justified meta-ethics God is useful as a necessary final cause of existence but it's not immediately derivable what properties He has that make Him a justified final cause, nor how we as creatures should orient our actions towards Him—these are matters of ethics that are somewhat decoupled from "grounding" morality in God in a higher level sense. God is used in such meta-ethics in a way similar to how an oracle machine is used in theoretical computer science, that is, He's an important part of a larger interconnected framework. One can't evaluate theistic meta-ethics without knowing what the other parts are.)

Comment author: TheOtherDave 11 May 2012 07:54:11PM 1 point [-]

Yeah, the better-justified version you describe strikes me as, if not necessarily better justified, at least more intelligible.

That said, now that I think about it a bit more, I'm enough of a consequentialist to have serious difficulty thinking straight about what it even means for a choice to be moral in the presence of a force capable of, in practical terms, divorcing my actions from their consequences. (Of course, not every theistic theory posits such a force, and it is possible to be in that position in a nontheistic context as well.)

I might quibble about your use of "popular" above, though, unless you really do mean it advisedly.

That is, it seems likely to me that Divine command theory is indeed the most popular approach, in the same sense that the most popular theory of ballistics predicts that when I drop a rock as I walk down the sidewalk, it will hit the ground a step or two behind me even though no halfway serious student of ballistics would predict any such thing. (Modulo extreme winds, anyway.)

But I'd love to be wrong about that.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 14 May 2012 02:02:23AM 3 points [-]

I don't know what meta-ethics are held by the Christian masses—does it actually come up very often?—but Catholic doctrine tends strongly towards Thomism, which isn't divine command theorist, and Catholicism is the largest sect of Christianity. I suspect that most Catholics would be dimly aware that divine command theory isn't quite right, upon considering the issue. I don't think that my "average Catholic" friend has ever considered meta-ethics in a detailed enough way such that she could distinguish between divine command theory and some alternative meta-ethical theory. After all, in all theistic meta-ethics morality stems from God in some sense, it's just the exact way in which it does so that is contentious. The sort of distinctions that are necessary to make are I believe quite beyond the philosophical competencies of your average Christian.

Comment author: gRR 08 May 2012 09:58:42PM *  0 points [-]

I think it goes something like this: (1) God created morality and cow-breeding, and (2) put the knowledge of it into humans [or, alternatively, the knowledge of morality was the result of eating the apple and knowing Good and Evil, I'm not sure], and (3) one of the important points of morality is that humans should have free will, and so (since God is moral) they do, and thus (4) they are free to practise immorality and cow-genocide.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 09 May 2012 12:01:44PM 3 points [-]

I admit, I don't quite understand how to ground morality on a mathematical structure, but then I don't quite understand how to ground morality on a traditional god, either.

If game-theoretic principles (like Nash-equilibrium) are mathematical structures and contractarianism (such as Gauthier's ethical theory) is true, then mathematical structures "ground morality".

Comment author: randallsquared 09 May 2012 03:24:18PM 1 point [-]

Morality consists of courses of action to achieve a goal or goals, and the goal or goals themselves. Game theory, evolutionary biology, and other areas of study can help choose courses of action, and they can explain why we have the goals we have, but they can't explain why we "ought" to have a given goal or goals. If you believe that a god created everything except itself, but including morality, then said god presumably can ground morality simply by virtue of having created it.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 16 May 2012 06:40:18AM *  1 point [-]

Game theory, evolutionary biology, and other areas of study can help choose courses of action, and they can explain why we have the goals we have, but they can't explain why we "ought" to have a given goal or goals.

Yeah, that is the dominant view, but Gauthier actually attempts to answer the question "why be moral?" (not only the question of "what is moral?") using game-theoretic concepts. In short, his answer is that being moral is rational. I don't remember whether or not he tries to answer the question "why be rational?"; I haven't read Morals by Agreement in years.

Comment author: randallsquared 16 May 2012 01:09:36PM 0 points [-]

There are (at least) two meaning for "why ought we be moral":

  • "Why should an entity without goals choose to follow goals", or, more generally, "Why should an entity without goals choose [anything]",
  • and, "Why should an entity with a top level goal of X discard this in favor of a top level goal of Y."

I can imagine answers to the second question (it could be that explicitly replacing X with Y results in achieving X better than if you don't; this is one driver of extremism in many areas), but it seems clear that the first question admits of no attack.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 17 May 2012 01:41:38AM 2 points [-]

"Why should an entity without goals choose to follow goals", or, more generally, "Why should an entity without goals choose [anything]",

An entity without goals would not be reading Gauthier's book.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 09 May 2012 03:26:01AM 1 point [-]

I admit, I don't quite understand how to ground morality on a mathematical structure

Well, look at things like TDT/UDT for starters.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 11 May 2012 06:51:32PM 3 points [-]

Though TDT and UDT weren't designed to be moral as such; it just turns out that non-self-defeating behavior seems to necessitate some degree of something like morality, largely because self-ness is a slippery idea.

Comment author: Hang 09 May 2012 05:46:18PM 2 points [-]

Dear Mr. RolfAndreassen.

Maybe I should have said that I believe in a deity in the same way I believe in mathematical entities. Natural language is tricky.

I question the assumption that something needs to do something else in order to exist. Take, for example, mathematical facts. They just "are" if you want. Some of them (but not all) are accessible trough our formal systems of mathematics. Some are not (certainly you are familiar with Godel's proof).

You may assert that the number two has its uses and thus assert the existence of number two. But what uses can you assert for mathematical truths that are not accessible? Do they stop existing because they are not accessible, or do they "pop into" existence, if I may, once they are?

The mere fact that the mathematical truths are before they are accessible (Again, godel's incompleteness theorem) says that mathematical truths exist, and therefore so do the parts that they are comprised of.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 09 May 2012 10:06:39PM 2 points [-]

Mr. RolfAndreassen.

If you wish to be formal, it's "Dr". If you prefer informality that's fine.

Take, for example, mathematical facts. They just "are" if you want. But what uses can you assert for mathematical truths that are not accessible?

I can assert them as axioms and use them to generate new formal systems. Consider Euclid's fifth, for example, which two millennia of geometers have failed to prove from smaller axiomatic systems; but which yields any number of theorems when taken as an axiom, or when either of its negations are so taken.

The mere fact that the mathematical truths are before they are accessible (Again, godel's incompleteness theorem) says that mathematical truths exist, and therefore so do the parts that they are comprised of.

Again, I do not understand this usage of the word 'exists'. You cannot prove Euclid's fifth axiom, or at any rate nobody has succeeded in doing so. Is it true? But its negations yield equally fruitful formal systems. What then is the sense in which it exists? Do you just mean that you can write it down on paper? Then likewise the adventures of Frodo Baggins exist. Are we to take it that the competing facts "Exactly one parallel line through a point not on a line", "Exactly zero lines", and "An infinite number of lines" all exist at the same time? What does this mean?

And even that aside, I object even more strongly to saying that a god exists in this same undefined sense. From an axiom you can at least derive theorems; an axiom is part of a formal system. Of what formal system is your god a part?

Comment author: [deleted] 08 May 2012 07:50:36PM *  1 point [-]

I don't understand what this means. Do you?

He (she?) believes that a deity exists, where “exists” is meant in the same sense in which mathematical entities exist, rather than in the sense in which physical objects exist?

Comment author: prase 08 May 2012 08:21:59PM 1 point [-]

"At least one natural number greater than 152 exists."

What does it mean, actually? In a formal sense, the sentence means that its formalised version is a theorem in PA, or whatever axiomatic system deemed relevant.

"God exists."

What does this mean, actually?

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 08 May 2012 09:55:54PM 0 points [-]

Well, in the first place, I'm really unclear on what it means to say that "the number 2 exists". I understand what it means to say "There are two sheep"; but to assert the existence of the number 2 seems to me rather vague. What would the world look like if it weren't so?

But that aside, my further objection is that the god doesn't seem to have any of the attributes of mathematical entities: It is not connected to any theorems, as it were. It is as though I had started the Peano Axioms by saying "0 is a number", and stopped. Why make this assertion? I can conclude that 0 'exists', but so what? The existence axiom is only useful in the presence of the other axioms.

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 09 May 2012 12:06:22AM 1 point [-]

to assert the existence of the number 2 seems to me rather vague. What would the world look like if it weren't so?

Consider the question of whether there exists a largest pair of twin primes. Is this question meaningful to you?

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 09 May 2012 01:40:51AM 1 point [-]

Yes, but I don't think this uses the word 'exist' in the same way. There's a particular set of formal steps I can go through to convince myself that two numbers are twin primes, and a different set of steps which will convince me that some particular pair is the largest such pair, or that there isn't a largest pair. But this seems different from what is meant by saying that the number two exists.

Comment author: Logos01 09 May 2012 05:28:48PM 2 points [-]

Yes, but I don't think this uses the word 'exist' in the same way.

I'd say not. I tend to use two independent terms when discussing the nature of a thing's existence; I will discuss first whether or not something is real; and then whether or not that real thing exists.

To be real; a thing must be an accurate description of some pattern of behavior that things which exist conform to. (I realize this is dense/inscrutable, more in a bit.) To exist; a thing must directly interact in some fashion with other things which exist; it must be 'instantiable'.

So numbers, mathematical constructs, words; these things are real but they do not exist. We can recognize them in how the things which do exist behave. The concepts are not themselves instantiated -- ever -- but we can handle them symbolically. If I hold three pebbles in my hand, that means there is a precise arrangement of pebbles; it has a precise relationship with two the arrangement we'd call "two pebbles" and the arrangement we'd call "four pebbles" and so on. But you'll never see/hear/touch/smell/taste the number 3. It's physically impossible for that to occur; because the number, 'three', does not exist. Pebbles on the other hand do exist; you can take a pebble and throw it into a lake.

I find that this differentiation between different meanings of the term "to be" makes the discussion vastly simpler. It eliminates whole swaths of silliness (like TAG for example); I am perfectly free to say "I can prove using the Laws of Logic that the Laws of Logic do not exist."

Comment author: gRR 09 May 2012 11:00:07PM *  1 point [-]

This is a philosophical mire. Do pebbles actually exist? But they are composed from quarks, electrons, etc, and these are in principle indistinguishable from one another, so a pebble is only defined by relations between them, doesn't it make the pebble only 'real'?

On the other hand, when I play a computer game, do the various objects in the virtual world exist? Presumably, yes, because they interact with me in some fashion, and I exist (I think...). What if I write a program to play for me and stop watching the monitor. Do they stop existing?

Comment author: Logos01 10 May 2012 04:12:47PM 2 points [-]

Do pebbles actually exist? But they are composed from quarks,

I refer to this as the Reductionist Problem of Scale. "Psychology isn't real because it's all just biology. Biology isn't real because it's all just chemistry. Chemistry isn't real because it's all just Physics." I don't see this as so much of a 'minefield' as a need to recognize that "scale matters". In unaided-human-observable Newtonian space, there is no question that pebbles are "totally a thing" -- they are. You can hold one in your hand. You can touch one to another one.

Of course; if you look solely at the scale of subquarks, then this distinction becomes unintelligible.

On the other hand, when I play a computer game, do the various objects in the virtual world exist?

No. Interacting with the symbol of a thing is not interacting with the thing itself. They are, however, fully real -- just like you yourself are fully real, but do not exist (you are not your body; you are not your brain; you are not the electrons and chemicals that flow through it. You are the pattern that is so-comprised. But that pattern itself is entirely non-physical in nature; it is non-instantiable and does not itself interact with anything -- nor can it ever.)

What if I write a program to play for me and stop watching the monitor. Do they stop existing?

I... am not rightly sure how you could come to the conclusion that this is a relevant question to the definition I provided. I did not say "to exist, things must be observed" -- I said "to exist, things must interact with other things". Pebbles interacting with lakes are interacting. Regardless of whether someone watches them.

If a tree falls in a forest, the tree exists. Regardless of whether it makes a sound.

Comment author: gRR 10 May 2012 08:20:45PM 1 point [-]

Hmm. Under your definition, "to exist, a thing must directly interact in some fashion with other things which exist". For this to be non-circular, you must specify at least one thing that is known to exist. I thought, this one certainly-known-to-exist thing is myself. If you say that under your definition I don't exist, then what can be known to exist and how can it be known to do so?

Comment author: Logos01 11 May 2012 12:08:15AM 1 point [-]

There is nothing circular about the definition -- merely recursive. "GNU" stands for "GNU is Not UNIX".

As soon as you observe two things to directly interact with one another, you may safely asssert that both exist under my definition.

This is, frankly, not very complicated to figure out.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 09 May 2012 10:18:44PM 0 points [-]

An excellent and useful distinction.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 09 May 2012 11:08:02PM *  0 points [-]

I'm not convinced this distinction holds up all that well. For example, would you say that software "exists"? How about supply functions? Nations? Boeing 747s? People? Force fields?

Edit: yes, what gRR said.

Comment author: Logos01 10 May 2012 04:31:42PM *  0 points [-]

For example, would you say that software "exists"?

No. But it is real. Software is a pattern by which electrons, magnetic fields, or photochemically-active media are constrained. The software itself is never a thing you can touch, hold, see, or smell, or taste; it never at any point is ever capable of directly interacting with anything. Just like you and me; we are not our bodies; nor our brains; nor the electrons or chemicals that flow through the brains. We are patterns those things are constrained by. I am the unique pattern that, in times past, created the password to the LW account, Logos01; and you the pattern that (I presume) created Eugine_Nier. But neither of us, physically, exist. This is important to notions of substrate-independence; where goes your pattern, is you. (Remember your Ship of Theseus problem.)

Right now I am downloading onto a VM on my workstation the 12.04 release of Lubuntu. This software is being pulled over ethernet to be delivered to a virtual harddrive image where it will be configured and installed. If I say I have LibreOffice installed too, it is clear I am talking about a specific release/instance/copy. We talk about identity in terms of software "Have you tried the latest Halo? It's awesome! ^_^" -- and two people can apparently own exactly the same game. But of course these are multiple copies of the pattern. It's even possible to talk about backups and restores. This is because the only thing that matters about defining whether something is or is not the software is that pattern.

Nations?

Real but do not exist. If every last person of the US packed their bags and got onto a rocket and shot themselves to Mars, it'd still be the United States of America. Even if every last person died while on that rocket and their kids were the ones who took over for them. Substrate independence once again demonstrates this.

Boeing 747s?

Exist. It is possible to see/hear/touch/smell/taste a Boeing 747 (I hear they taste like burnt chocolate and chicken.) It is possible for two Boeing 747's to be run into one another; or for a comet to strike one. It is not possible for a factory to churn out political constructs or minds. (Though it is possible for them to assemble all the pieces that would, when activated, allow for the presence of a mind.)

While you CAN take all the individual components of a Boeing 747 apart and put them back together again to make the same object; or over time transfer pieces into / from it (Theseus's Grandfather's Axe) -- what you can't do is just "declare" a different physical object to BE that original Boeing 747. You can't have five of the same Boeing 747. That is because it is a thing which directly interacts with other things.

People?

See the above. If some temporal accident causes me to split into two, both of those people would still be ME. (Though their cohabitating the same space would cause divergence of identity over time.) Again, this is because what I physically am is irrelevant to determining my identity (and identity is the conformance to a specific pattern).

Force fields?

"In physics a force field is a vector field that describes a non-contact force acting on a particle at various positions in space." You see that word, "acting"? To "act upon" something is quite literally definitional to being said to "interact with" a thing. By the definition I have provided of 'exists', and the definition of 'force field' as found on Wikipedia, force fields definitionally exist.

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 09 May 2012 07:52:14PM *  1 point [-]

Yes, but I don't think this uses the word 'exist' in the same way.

Granting this distinction for the moment, I still think that this points to how a platonist would answer your original question:

[T]o assert the existence of the number 2 seems to me rather vague. What would the world look like if it weren't so?

The platonist might reply: If the number 2 didn't exist in the platonic sense, then one implication would be that you would be unable to construct proofs of that number's existence within the formal systems that you're thinking of.

In other words, the platonist might argue that formal systems such as PA are accurate (if incomplete) maps of the "territory", which is the objectively real platonic realm within which abstract mathematical objects exist. If the statement that the number 2 exists were false of the territory, then, since the map is accurate, the corresponding formal statement would not hold within the map. Hence, an empirical implication of the number 2's not existing would be that you would have the subjective experience of observing the failure of attempts to prove the formal statement that the number 2 exists.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 09 May 2012 10:17:41PM 0 points [-]

then one implication would be that you would be unable to construct proofs of that number's existence within the formal systems that you're thinking of.

This seems to me rather confused, because it is easy to construct a formal system with which we have precisely that experience. Consider this variant of the Peano Axioms:

  1. 0 is a number.
  2. 0 has a successor, which is also a number.
  3. The successor of the successor of 0 is not a number. (Alternatively, "is 0". I think this gives us arithmetic modulo 2.)
  4. (Add the axoms of reflexivity, transitivity, and so on.)

Now clearly, in this formal system I cannot prove the existence of the number two, because its nonexistence is an axiom. Shall I conclude, then, that the number two doesn't exist, on this account? By what standard are we to judge between formal systems in which 2 is provable, those in which it is disprovable, and those in which it cannot be proved either way? Do we take a vote? Is it a question of appeal to human intuition?

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 09 May 2012 11:53:10PM *  2 points [-]

it is easy to construct a formal system with which we have precisely that experience.

I included the qualification "the formal systems that you're thinking of". Were you thinking of that formal system when you wrote

There's a particular set of formal steps I can go through to convince myself that two numbers are twin primes, and a different set of steps which will convince me that some particular pair is the largest such pair, or that there isn't a largest pair.

?

By what standard are we to judge between formal systems in which 2 is provable, those in which it is disprovable, and those in which it cannot be proved either way? Do we take a vote? Is it a question of appeal to human intuition?

This is a separate question from your original one. To answer your original question, the platonist need only point to a particular formal system (e.g., PA), and say that the nonexistence of the number 2 would mean [ETA: rather, would imply] that there would be no proof of 2's existence in that particular system.

But the platonist would also find your new question interesting. For example, when you wrote "There's a particular set of formal steps ...", how did you come to settle on that particular set of formal steps?

One position would maintain that some particular formal system is implicit in the statement of the twin prime conjecture (TPC). That is, when someone asks "Are there infinitely many twin primes?", they are speaking in an abbreviated fashion, and they really mean "Does PA prove that there infinitely many twin primes?", or "Does ZFC prove that ...", or something like that. This position would claim that number-talk has meaning only when the speaker has some specific formal system in mind.

The difficulty with this position is that people seemed to be making meaningful assertions about numbers for thousands of years before settling on any formal systems of arithmetic — indeed before they even had the concept of a formal system. (Euclid's is presumably too unrigorous to count.) Ancient number-theory texts such as the Introduction to Arithmetic by Nicomachus often didn't even include anything like what we would call a proof, not even in the sense in which Euclid's arguments are called proofs. Nicomachus pretty much just flatly asserts number-theoretic propositions, perhaps bolstering his claims with a few examples. Yet somehow readers would reflect on these propositions and agree with them, even though Nicomachus didn't communicate which formal system he was working within.

Another position would maintain that people absorb some formal system implicitly from their culture, and their number-talk is automatically in terms of that formal system. Even if that culture lacks the concept of a formal system, nonetheless all its number-talk is governed by some formal system.

But it is not even known whether the TPC is decidable in any of the standard formal systems. Suppose that the TPC were proved undecidable in, say, ZFC. Would the question really then lose all meaning? Consider a physical computer that brute-force factors one odd number after the next, and prints every consecutive pair of odd numbers that have no nontrivial factorizations. Would it really become meaningless to ask whether there is a bound on how many entries the computer would print, regardless of how many physical resources it were given? Granted, this is necessarily a counterfactual, but . . .

I am not a platonist, but I still can't call myself a formalist, because I can't bring myself to declare confidently that the TPC would become meaningless if it were proved undecidable in ZFC. Indeed, even if the TPC happens to be undecidable in every formal system whose axioms would seem to us to be "intuitively correct" of numbers, it still seems to me that our concept of number may suffice to determine a truth value for the above counterfactual. Either that computer would churn out pairs forever, or it wouldn't.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 10 May 2012 12:35:29AM 0 points [-]

I included the qualification "the formal systems that you're thinking of". Were you thinking of that formal system when you wrote (quote)

I wasn't, but I rather strongly opine that the word 'exists' should not be applied to a state that can change with the vagaries of what formal system I happen to be thinking of. At an absolute minimum, it should be qualified along the lines of "X exists within formal system Y" or "The existence of X is a theorem of formal system Y". At which point I can return to my original question: What is the formal system of which "God exists" is a theorem or axiom? I also note that "Given axioms X, God exists" is somehow a rather less impressive claims than a floating "God exists". Yet it's so much more specific and satisfactory.

To answer your original question, the platonist need only point to a particular formal system (e.g., PA), and say that the nonexistence of the number 2 would mean that there would be no proof of 2's existence in that particular system.

This is at least an answer to the question, "What is meant by 'exist'?"; it gives us a definite procedure for deciding what does and doesn't exist. But I opine that it's not a very satisfactory one. Why that formal system and not some other one?

But it is not even known whether the TPC is decidable in any of the standard formal systems. Suppose that the TPC were proved undecidable in, say, ZFC. Would the question really then lose all meaning? Consider a physical computer that brute-force factors one odd number after the next, and prints every consecutive pair of odd numbers that have no nontrivial factorizations. Would it really become meaningless to ask whether there is a bound on how many entries the computer would print, regardless of how many physical resources it were given?

I don't think so, but I'm not sure I understand the relevance, but what I'm objecting to is the word 'exists'. Suppose you established that the computer was going to print these two numbers and then stop. That is an experimental prediction which we can test. (Updating our belief in the proposition upwards with every second that the computer prints nothing more.) I still don't see the value in asserting on these grounds that something exists. Why not stick with what is observable, namely that the computer halts, or doesn't halt?

If you want to say that 'exists' is a short form of "the computer halts", fine; but it does not seem to me that this is what platonists usually intend to say. And, to return to the original problem, it is still completely unclear what "God exists" is shorthand for.

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 10 May 2012 05:46:37AM *  2 points [-]

I rather strongly opine that the word 'exists' should not be applied to a state that can change with the vagaries of what formal system I happen to be thinking of.

The platonist certainly agrees. The test I described would only work for "accurate" maps of the territory. The platonist would consider PA to be an accurate (but incomplete) map of the actual natural numbers, while the formal system you described is not.

To answer your original question, the platonist need only point to a particular formal system (e.g., PA), and say that the nonexistence of the number 2 would mean that there would be no proof of 2's existence in that particular system.

This is at least an answer to the question, "What is meant by 'exist'?"; it gives us a definite procedure for deciding what does and doesn't exist. But I opine that it's not a very satisfactory one. Why that formal system and not some other one?

Actually, I was a little sloppy, there. When speaking on behalf of the platonist, I shouldn't have written "would mean", but rather "would imply". The point is that I wasn't defining what "the number 2 exists" means, but rather describing what the world would be like if the number 2 didn't exist.

At any rate, I don't mean to be giving a "definite procedure". For the platonist, PA is an accurate, but incomplete, map. Consider that there probably exist physical things of which we will never find any empirical trace. Similarly, the platonist expects that there exist mathematical objects that remain entirely unmapped by our formal systems or intuitions.

I still don't see the value in asserting on these grounds that something exists.

If you would be willing, on these grounds, to assert with some confidence that the computer will never print any more pairs, why would you demure from asserting, on these same grounds, and with this same confidence, "A largest pair of twin primes exists, and this most-recently printed pair is it."?

Why not stick with what is observable, namely that the computer halts, or doesn't halt?

(Just to clarify: The program I described never halts, even if the TPC is true. The program continues to run; it continues to brute-force factor progressively larger odd integers. It just never prints anything further to its output tape beyond a certain point.)

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 11 May 2012 01:34:43AM 1 point [-]

I don't think so, but I'm not sure I understand the relevance, but what I'm objecting to is the word 'exists'.

Why not stick with what is observable, namely that the computer halts, or doesn't halt?

This is a universal counterargument against saying that anything besides what we are currently observing exists.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 09 May 2012 11:02:43PM 0 points [-]

Yes and the number 2 exists within the natural numbers, but not within the model your system describes.

I would argue that the same argument MinibearRex uses here to justify his belief on a reality underlying our physical observations. Specifically, if there is no real system underlying our models how do you account for their seeming consistency?

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 10 May 2012 12:36:46AM 0 points [-]

What consistency? You just acknowledged that there are formal systems in which 2 doesn't exist.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 10 May 2012 01:52:19AM 0 points [-]

What consistency?

The fact that the formal systems are consistent.

You just acknowledged that there are formal systems in which 2 doesn't exist.

And there are planets on which humans don't exist. I don't see how this is inconsistent.