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siodine comments on Thoughts on the Singularity Institute (SI) - Less Wrong
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I accept all those points, and yet I still see the Singularity Institute having made the improvements that you've made since being hired before you were hired if they have superior general rationality. That is, you wouldn't have that list of relatively trivial things to brag about because someone else would have recognized the items on that list as important and got them done somehow (ignore any negative connotations--they're not intended).
For instance, I don't see a varied group of people with superior general rationality not discovering or just not outsourcing work they don't have a comparative advantage in (i.e., what you've done). That doesn't look like just a failure in instrumental rationality, or just rationality operating on a different kind of utility function, or just a lack of domain specific knowledge.
The excuses available to a person acting in a way that's non-traditionally rational are less convincing when you apply them to a group.
No, I get that. But that still doesn't explain away the higher salaries like EY's 80k/year and its past upwards trend. I mean, these higher paid people are the most committed to the cause, right? I don't see those people taking a higher salary when they could use that money for more outsourcing, or another employee, or better employees, if they want to literally save humanity while being superior in general rationality. It's like a homeless person desperately in want of shelter trying save enough for an apartment and yet buying meals at some restaurant.
That's the point I was making, why wasn't that done earlier? How did these people apparently miss out on opportunity cost? (And I'm just using outsourcing as an example because it was one of the most glaring changes you made that I think should have probably been made much earlier.)
Right, I think we're saying the same thing, here: the availability of so much low-hanging fruit in organizational development as late as Sept. 2011 is some evidence against the general rationality of SIers. Eliezer seems to want to say it was all a matter of funding, but that doesn't make sense to me.
Now, on this:
For some reason I'm having a hard time parsing your sentences for unambiguous meaning, but if I may attempt to rephrase: "SIers wouldn't take any salaries higher than (say) $70k/yr if they were truly committed to the cause and good in general rationality, because they would instead use that money to accomplish other things." Is that what you're saying?
Enough for you to agree with Holden on that point?
Yes, but I wouldn't set a limit at a specific salary range; I'd expect them to give as much as they optimally could, because I assume they're more concerned with the cause than the money. (re the 70k/yr mention: I'd be surprised if that was anywhere near optimal)
Probably not. He and I continue to dialogue in private about the point, in part to find the source of our disagreement.
I believe everyone except Eliezer currently makes between $42k/yr and $48k/yr — pretty low for the cost of living in the Bay Area.
So, if you disagree with Holden, I assume you think SIers have superior general rationality: why?
And I'm confident SIers will score well on rationality tests, but that looks like specialized rationality. I.e., you can avoid a bias but you can't avoid a failure in your achieving your goals. To me, the SI approach seems poorly leveraged. I expect more significant returns from simple knowledge acquisition. E.g., you want to become successful? YOU WANT TO WIN?! Great, read these textbooks on microeconomics, finance, and business. I think this is more the approach you take anyway.
That isn't as bad as I thinking it was; I don't know if that's optimal, but it seems at least reasonable.
I'll avoid double-labor on this and wait to reply until my conversation with Holden is done.
Right. Exercise the neglected virtue of scholarship and all that.
It's not that easy to dismiss; if it's as poorly leveraged as it looks relative to other approaches then you have little reason to be spreading and teaching SI's brand of specialized rationality (except for perhaps income).
I'm not dismissing it, I'm endorsing it and agreeing with you that it has been my approach ever since my first post on LW.
Weird, I have this perception of SI being heavily invested in overcoming biases and epistemic rationality training to the detriment of relevant domain specific knowledge, but I guess that's wrong?
I'm lost again; I don't know what you're saying.
(Disclaimer: the following comment should not be taken to imply that I myself have concluded that SI staff salaries should be reduced.)
I'll grant you that it's pretty low relative to other Bay Area salaries. But as for the actual cost of living, I'm less sure.
I'm not fortunate enough to be a Bay Area resident myself, but here is what the internet tells me:
After taxes, a $48,000/yr gross salary in California equates to a net of around $3000/month.
A 1-bedroom apartment in Berkeley and nearby places can be rented for around $1500/month. (Presumably, this is the category of expense where most of the geography-dependent high cost of living is contained.)
If one assumes an average spending of $20/day on food (typically enough to have at least one of one's daily meals at a restaurant), that comes out to about $600/month.
That leaves around $900/month for miscellaneous expenses, which seems pretty comfortable for a young person with no dependents.
So, if these numbers are right, it seems that this salary range is actually right about what the cost of living is. Of course, this calculation specifically does not include costs relating to signaling (via things such as choices of housing, clothing, transportation, etc.) that one has more money than necessary to live (and therefore isn't low-status). Depending on the nature of their job, certain SI employees may need, or at least find it distinctly advantageous for their particular duties, to engage in such signaling.