TheAncientGeek comments on General purpose intelligence: arguing the Orthogonality thesis - Less Wrong

20 Post author: Stuart_Armstrong 15 May 2012 10:23AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (156)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: JGWeissman 01 October 2013 03:13:20PM 2 points [-]

You are making the standard MIRI assumptions that goals are unupdatable

No, I am arguing that agents with goals generally don't want to update their goals. Neither I nor MIRI assume goals are unupdatable, actually a major component of MIRI's research is on how to make sure a self improving AI has stable goals.

and don't include rationality (non arbitrariness, etc) as a terminal value. (The latter is particularly odd, as Orthogonality implies it).

It is possible to have an agent that terminally values meta properties of its own goal system. Such agents, if they are capable of modifying their goal system, will likely self modify to some self-consistent "attractor" system. This does not mean that all agents will converge on a universal goal system. There are different ways that agents can value meta properties of their own goal system, so there are likely many attractors, and many possible agents don't have such meta values and will not want to modify their goal systems.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 01 October 2013 10:24:22PM *  -2 points [-]

It is possible to have an agent that terminally values meta properties of its own goal system. Such agents, if they are capable of modifying their goal system, will likely self modify to some self-consistent "attractor" system. This does not mean that all agents will converge on a universal goal system.

Who asserted they would? Moral agents can have all sorts of goals, They just have to respect each others values. If Smith wants to be an athlete, and Robinson is a budding writer, that doesn't mean one of them is immoral.

There are different ways that agents can value meta properties of their own goal system,

Ok. That would be a problem with your suggestion of valuing arbitrary meta properties of their goal system. Then lets go back to my suggestion of valuing rationality.

so there are likely many attractors, and many possible agents don't have such meta values and will not want to modify their goal systems.

Agents will do what they are built to do. If agents that don't value rationality are dangerous, build ones that do.

MIRI: "We have detemined that cars without bbrakes are dangerous. We have also determined that the best solution is to reduce the speed limit to 10mph"

Everyone else: "We know cars without brakes are dangerous. That's why we build them with brakes".

Comment author: Desrtopa 01 October 2013 11:39:26PM 1 point [-]

Who asserted they would? Moral agents can have all sorts of goals, They just have to respect each others values. If Smith wants to be an athlete, and Robinson is a budding writer, that doesn't mean one of them is immoral.

Have to, or else what? And how do we separate moral agents from agents that are not moral?

Ok. That would be a problem with your suggestion of valuing arbitrary meta properties of their goal system. Then lets go back to my suggestion of valuing rationality.

Valuing rationality for what? What would an agent which "values rationality" do?

Agents will do what they are built to do. If agents that don't value rationality are dangerous, build ones that do.

MIRI: "We have detemined that cars without bbrakes are dangerous. We have also determined that the best solution is to reduce the speed limit to 10mph"

Everyone else: "We know cars without brakes are dangerous. That's why we build them with brakes".

If the solution is to build agents that "value rationality," can you explain how to do that? If it's something so simple as to be analogous to adding brakes to a car, as opposed to, say, programming the car to be able to drive itself (let alone something much more complicated,) then it shouldn't be so difficult to describe how to do it.