APMason comments on Problematic Problems for TDT - Less Wrong

36 Post author: drnickbone 29 May 2012 03:41PM

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Comment author: loup-vaillant 24 June 2012 08:04:56PM *  0 points [-]

The only reason other decision theories know they're not in the simulation is because the problem explicitly states that a TDT agent is simulated, which means it can't be them.

That's false. Here is a modified version of the problem:

Omega presents the usual two boxes A and B and announces the following. "Before you entered the room, I ran a simulation of Newcomb's problem as presented to you. If your simulated twin 2-boxed then I put nothing in Box B. If your simulated twin 1-boxed, I put $1 million in Box B. In any case, I put $1000 in Box A. Now please 1-box or 2-box."

Even if you're not running TDT, the simulated agent is running the same decision algorithm as you are. If that was the reason why TDT couldn't tell the difference, well, now no one can. However you and I can make the difference. The simulated problem is obviously different:

Omega presents the usual two boxes A and B and announces the following. "I am subjecting you to Newcomb's problem. Now please 1-box or 2-box".

Really, the subjective difference between the two problems should be obvious to any remotely rational agent.

(Please let me know if you agree up until that point. Below, I assume you do.)

I'm pretty sure the correct answers for the two problems (my modified version as well as the original one) are 1-box in the simulation, 2-box in the real problem. (Do you still agree?)

So. We both agree that RDT (Rational Decision Theory) 1-boxes in the simulation, and 2-boxes in the real problem. CDT would 2-box in both, and TDT would 1-box in the simulation while in the real problem it would…

  • 2-box? I think so.
  • 1-box? Supposedly because it can't tell simulation from reality. Or rather, it can't tell the difference between Newcomb's problem and the actual problem. Even though RDT does. (riiight?) So again, I must ask, why not? I need a more specific answer than "due to how the problem is set up". I need you to tell me what specific kind of irrationality TDT is committing here. I need to know its specific blind spot.
Comment author: APMason 24 June 2012 08:59:33PM 0 points [-]

Well, in the problem you present here TDT would 2-box, but you've avoided the hard part of the problem from the OP, in which there is no way to tell whether you're in the simulation or not (or at least there is no way for the simulated you to tell), unless you're running some algorithm other than TDT.

Comment author: loup-vaillant 24 June 2012 09:19:05PM *  0 points [-]

I see no such hard part.

To get back to the exact original problem as stated by the OP, I only need to replace "you" by "an agent running TDT", and "your simulated twin" by "the simulated agent". Do we agree?

Assuming we do agree, are you telling me the hard part is in that change? Are you telling me that TDT would 1-box in the original problem, even though it 2-boxes on my problem?

WHYYYYY?

in which there is no way to tell whether you're in the simulation or not

Wait a minute, what exactly do you mean by "you"? TDT? or "any agent whatsoever"? If it's TDT alone why? If I read you correctly, you already agree that's it's not because Omega said "running TDT" instead of "running WTF-DT". If it's "any agent whatsoever", then are you really sure the simulated and real problem aren't actually the same? (I'm sure they aren't, but, just checking.)

Comment author: APMason 24 June 2012 10:08:30PM 0 points [-]

Wait a minute, what exactly do you mean by "you"? TDT? or "any agent whatsoever"? If it's TDT alone why? If I read you correctly, you already agree that's it's not because Omega said "running TDT" instead of "running WTF-DT". If it's "any agent whatsoever", then are you really sure the simulated and real problem aren't actually the same? (I'm sure they aren't, but, just checking.)

Well, no, this would be my disagreement: it's precisely because Omega told you that the simulated agent is running TDT that only TDT could or could not be the simulation; the simulated and real problem are, for all intents and purposes, identical (Omega doesn't actually need to put a reward in the simulated boxes, because he doesn't need to reward the simulated agent, but both problems appear exactly the same to the simulated and real TDT agents).

Comment author: loup-vaillant 25 June 2012 06:51:30AM 1 point [-]

This comment from lackofcheese finally made it click. Your comment also make sense.

I now understand that this "problematic" problem just isn't fair. TDT 1-boxes because it's the only way to get the million.

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