TheOtherDave comments on How to deal with non-realism? - Less Wrong

12 Post author: loup-vaillant 22 May 2012 01:58PM

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Comment author: loup-vaillant 23 May 2012 09:50:37AM *  7 points [-]

"Extreme agnosticism" sounds mostly accurate. She will doubt as a matter of principle, but she won't put a probability on that doubt. As for why I believed what I wrote here…

We talked. A lot. It spanned over multiple conversations, for several months, if not over a year. First, I tried to talk about transhumanist things, like mind uploading. She found it impossible sounding, scary, horrible, and sad. We talked about the potential power of science. She seems to think that science isn't omnipotent (sounds true enough), and some specific things, like the understanding of the human soul, seems definitely out of reach. But I don't recall she ever stuck her neck out and flatly said that there's no way science could ever unravel the mysteries of our minds, even in principle (I personally have some doubt, because of the self-referencing involved. But I don't think these difficulties would prevent us from understanding enough low-level mechanisms to effectively emulate a brain.).

We moved on to more basic things, like reductionism. She often "accuses" me of wanting to control everything with math. So I tried to assert that our world is math all the way down, even if it's way too complicated for us to actually use accurate math. But she doesn't seem to make the bridge between the laws of physics and a full human brain. She seems to assert that there is something there that is by nature incomprehensible. But when I call that "magic", she rejects the term.

At some point, I wrote this (French or English depending on your browser settings). I don't think very highly of it, but I thought it would at least serve my point: stopped being called intolerant just because I take the logical step from believing something to asserting that someone who doesn't believe it is mistaken. (Modulo tiny uncertainties.) It didn't work at all. She just found it juvenile, besides the point, and by the way, the colour of my socks and the existence of God are not the same thing, and should not be reasoned about in the same way. My informal formulation of the Auman's agreement theorem also fell on deaf ears.

We had some more fruitless debates, where I believe she doesn't understand me, and where she believe she perfectly understands me, but I cannot perceive her arguments the same way humans can't perceive ultra-violet, which is why I reject them, the same way some ignorant fool would say "there's no such thing as invisible light". This feels very close to saying that I lack some brain circuitry, though I don't think she would actually say that if I asked. But I do feel like I talk to some mystic who claim to have higher perceptions, and I should not call them hallucinations just because I lack them. (Sounds like Freudian psychoanalysis: If you don't believe it, something is wrong with you.) Of course, her high status (being my mother and older than me) doesn't help. Heck, she even said she used to think like me, but got past that. So I'm clearly immature. I suspect she hopes I will understand her when I get older.

So I ended up writing this (French only for now). She hasn't read it so far, but I told her about the first paragraphs (which I roughly translated in my post here). Then she told me there's something wrong with this. (But again, she won't outright contradict me, and say there isn't a world out there.)

By the way, she thinks I believe all that stuff for some "deep reason", which I take to mean "something unrelated to the actual accuracy of such beliefs". She thinks I have some deep fear inside that makes me cling to that. (No kidding: I see small hopes of making a paradise out of our world, and I would give up on them? OK, if it's impossible after all, let us enjoy our short lives. But if there is a possibility, then missing it is unforgivable.) Strangest of all, she sees a contradiction between my humanistic, left-wing, environmentalist ideas, and my consequentialist, positivist, transhumanist ideas.

Now to her credit, I must note that she probably changed her mind about longevity: without taking into account some problems like world population, she wouldn't be against doubling our life expectancy, or more. Living forever seems too much yet, but a couple centuries seems like a good idea. (She is closer to death lately: her aunt, which she loves dearly, starts to have health problems that may prove serious in the coming years, if not months.)

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 23 May 2012 12:15:03PM 7 points [-]

One way to test your mother's attitude to science, explanation, and so on, would be to see what she thinks of theories of the mind which sound like nonreductionistic quantum mysticism to you. What would she think of the theory that qualia are in the quantum-gravity transitions of the microtubule, and the soul is a bose-einstein condensate in the brain? I predict that she would find that sort of theory much more agreeable and plausible. I think she's not hostile to reality or to understanding, she's hostile to reductionism that falsifies subjective reality.

People here and elsewhere believe in ordinary reductionist materialism because they think they have to - because they think it is a necessary implication of the scientifically examined world - not because that outlook actually makes sense. For someone who truly believes in an atomistic physical universe, the natural belief is dualism: matter is made of atoms, mind is some other sort of thing. It's only the belief in the causal closure and causal self-sufficiency of atomistic physics that leads people to come up with all the variations of mental materialism: eliminativism, epiphenomenalism, various "identity theories" such as functionalism. A lot of these so-called materialisms are actually dualisms, but they are property dualism rather than substance dualism: the mind is the brain, but it has properties like "being in a certain state of consciousness", which are distinct from, yet somehow correlated with, properties like "being made of atoms arranged in a certain way".

I regard this situation as temporary and contingent. It's the consequence of the limitations of our current science and currently available concepts. I fully expect that new data from biology, new perspectives in physics, and a revival of rigorous studies of subjectivity like transcendental phenomenology, is eventually going to give us a physically monistic account of what the self is, in which consciousness as it is subjectively experienced is regarded as the primary ontological reality of self-states, and the traditional physical description as just an abstracted account, a mathematical black box which does not concern itself with intrinsic properties, only an abstracted causal model. But abstracted causal models are the whole of natural-scientific ontology at the present time, and materialists try to believe that that is the fundamental nature of reality, and the aspect of reality which we experience more or less directly in subjectivity, is some sort of alien overlay.

The folk opposition to reductionist materialism derives to a large degree from people in touch with the nature of subjective experience - even if they can't express its nature with the rigor of a philosopher - and who perceive - again, more intuitively than rigorously - how much of reality is lacking in a strictly "mathematical" or "naturalistic" ontology. In rejecting reductionism, they are getting something right, compared to the brash advocates of materialist triumphalism, who think there's no problem in saying "I'm just a program, and reality is just atoms".

I know it must sound scandalous or bizarre to hear such sentiments on Less Wrong, but this really is the ultimate problem. The natural-scientific thinkers are trying to make models of the mind, but the intuitive skeptics are keeping them honest, and the situation will not be resolved by anything less than a new ontology, which will look in certain respects very "old" and retro, because it will reinstate into existence everything that was swept under the carpet of consciousness in order to construct the physical/computational paradigm of reality. It is very clear that people with a highly developed capacity for thinking abstractly are capable of blinding themselves to vast tracts of reality, in order to reify their abstractions and assert that these abstractions are the whole of reality. It is one particular form of belief projection to which "rationalists" are especially susceptible. And until the enormous task of perceiving and articulating the true ontology, and the way that it fits into science or that science fits into it, has been done, all that the enemies of premature reification can do is to make suggestive statements like this one, hoping that something will strike a chord and reawaken enough prescientific awareness in the listener for them to detach themselves a little from their constructs and "see" what the intuitives see.

Similarly, some part of the rejection of life extension through uploading comes from a rejection of the metaphysic implied. It looks like the uploader is denying reality. Life extension through rejuvenation is much more acceptable for this reason - though even there, the wisdom of the human race says that striving for literal immortality is unhealthy because it's surely impossible, and it's unhealthy to attempt impossibilities because it only sets you up for suffering when the inevitable comes. There are a bunch of other psychological issues here, about how much striving and how much uncertainty is rational, the value of life and the rationality of creating it, and so on, where I think transhumanism is often more in the right than tradition. But I will assert emphatically that the crude reductionisms we have available to us now are radically at odds with the facts of subjective experience, and so therefore they are wrong. It is better to revert to agnosticism about fundamental reality, if that is what it takes to retain awareness of subjectivity, rather than to reify mathematics and develop distorted ideas, so here I do side with your mother.

Comment author: loup-vaillant 23 May 2012 01:14:58PM *  1 point [-]

You know, I do have this nagging doubt: why am I me, and not someone else? I do see a problem with subjective experience. On the one hand, it doesn't make intuitive sense in a universe that runs on math, but on the other, what could there be beyond the causal stuff? I sense something fishy.

I too view reductionistic materialism as mainly an empirical claim. What I do view as necessary is the mere existence of something. I think, therefore "something" is. Maybe that "something" is limited to my personal experience, but whatever it is, it works somehow, and what I think won't change it (unless magical thinking works, but then that is how the world runs).

I am not confident mind uploading should work. But I have empirical reasons to believe it may. First, we have cut&paste transportation. I'm confident it works because current physics says so. The universe doesn't care whether I landed in vulcan by shuttle or by energy beam, it's the same configuration. Current laws of physics could be mistaken (they're not even complete, so they are mistaken somewhere), but this "no identity" stuff looks like something that won't go away.

Second, I imagined this thought experiment: suspend you, restart you in a green room, suspend you again, then restart you in the laboratory. Result: you have the memory of having been in a green room. The other possibility is, suspend you, scan your brain, run the emulation in a simulated green room identical to the real one, pause the em, rewire your brain to match the em end state, restart you in the laboratory. Result: you have the memory of having been in a green room. It's the same configuration in both case, so no memory is less real than the other. Conclusion: you have been in a green room. It doesn't matter if it was physically or in uploaded form.

Note that I become much less confident when I think about leaving up my physical brain (edit: I mean, my original protoplasm wetware) for good.

If uploading doesn't work, it still can be valuable: If I have goals beyond my own existence, a ghost may be better at achieving them rather than nothing at all. It also prevents total oblivion.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 23 May 2012 01:18:01PM 0 points [-]

I assume by "physical brain" here you mean one made of protoplasm.
What does contemplating the possibility that you aren't running on such a brain now do to your confidence?

Comment author: loup-vaillant 23 May 2012 02:50:47PM *  0 points [-]

Yes, I meant protoplasm.

If I knew that I am currently running on a silicon chip (Gunm-style), then I would be highly confident that replacing that chip by another, identical one, preserves my identity, because it's the same configuration. Moreover, replacing my old chip by a newer one, before the physical deterioration significantly affects the actual software processing, probably would work as well.

But if we're talking about running my software on a different chip through, say, a virtual machine that emulate my original chip, then I would be less confident that it would still be me. As confident as I am that, an EM of my current wetware would still be me. Which is, currently, not confident enough to make the leap.

Ah, and if I do learn that I run on a chip, I won't turn crazy. I may be worried if I knew my wetware self were still running around, and I may not tell my mother, but besides that I don't really care. If I knew that my wetware self was "dead", then I would wonder if I should feel sorry for him, or if I'm actually him. Because I value my life, I know that my wetware self did too. But I'd probably get over it with the knowledge that the rest of the world (including my family) didn't lose anything, (or at least they wouldn't suspect a thing).

I'm confident an EM would not be a PZombie.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 23 May 2012 04:29:21PM 0 points [-]

(nods) Makes sense.

Presumably the reason you have such confidence about the interchangeability of identical chips is because your experience encompasses lots of examples of such chips behaving interchangeably to support a given application. More generally, you've learned the lesson through experience that while two instances of the same product coming off similar assembly lines may not be 100% identical, they are reliably close enough along the dimensions we care about to be interchangeable.

And, lacking such experience about hardware/wetware interchangeability, you are properly less certain about the corresponding conclusion.

Presumably, if that sort of experience became commonplace, your confidence would increase.

Comment author: Logos01 23 May 2012 09:59:01PM 0 points [-]

As I often say; you are not your meat. You are the unique pattern of information-flow that occurs within your meat. The meat is not necessary to the information, but the information does require a substrate.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 23 May 2012 11:27:43PM 4 points [-]

Consider the following set of statements:
1) "I am my meat."
2) "I am the unique pattern of information-flow that occurs within my meat."
3) "I am the class of patterns of information-flow that can occur within meat, of which this unique pattern is one example."
4) "I am the class of patterns of information-flow that can occur within any substrate, of which this unique pattern is one example."
5) "I am all the matter and energy in the universe."

What sorts of experiences would constitute evidence for one of them over the others?

Comment author: Logos01 29 May 2012 05:32:52PM 0 points [-]

1 v 2 -- is your "meat" persistent over time? (It is not).

2 v 3 are non differentiable -- 2 is 3.

4 is implied by 2/3. It is affirmed by physics simulations that have atomic-level precision, and by research like the Blue Brain project.

5 is excluded by the absence of non-local phenomena ('psychic powers').

Comment author: TheOtherDave 29 May 2012 06:29:10PM 0 points [-]

I agree that my meat does not persist over time.

The class of patterns of information-flow that can occur within meat includes the pattern of information-flow that occurs within your meat. 3 therefore asserts that I am you, in addition to being me. 2 does not assert this. They seem like different claims to me, insofar as any of these claims are different from the others.

I'm not really sure what non-local phenomena are, or what they have to do with psychic powers, or what they have to do with the proper referent for "I".

Comment author: Logos01 01 June 2012 05:38:53PM 0 points [-]

Missed that about the class. Makes a difference, definitely.

I'm not really sure what non-local phenomena are [...]

Two options: trust the assertions of those who are sure, or learn of them for yourself. :)

Comment author: loup-vaillant 24 May 2012 01:38:52PM 0 points [-]

Good point. This is precisely the source of my doubt, and the reason why I'm not sure that changing substrate preserves identity.

The thing is, quantum mechanics makes me confident that if I go from configuration X to configuration Y, through a path that preserves identity, then any path from X to Y preserves my identity. But I am less confident about intermediate states (like the temporary emulation in the simulated green room).

Comment author: TheOtherDave 24 May 2012 01:49:27PM 1 point [-]

Given your understanding of quantum mechanics, is your identity in this sense preserved from year to year today?
If it weren't, would you care?

Comment author: loup-vaillant 24 May 2012 09:33:16PM 1 point [-]

I'm not sure that's a meaningful question. I undoubtedly change from year to year, so… But there is some kind of continuity, which I'm afraid could be broken by a change of substrate. (But then again, we could change my substrate bit by bit…

If it weren't, I would not care, because it wouldn't break anything I value. If preservation of identity doesn't even happen currently in our mundane world, I would be stupid to value it. And I'll happily upload, then (modulo the mundane risk of being badly emulated of course).

But first, I must be convinced that either identity wasn't preserved in the first place, or that uploading preserves identity, or that I was just confused because the world actually works like… who knows.

Comment author: fiddlemath 24 May 2012 02:41:04AM 0 points [-]

It would just be an argument over the definition of "I". Here, tabooing "I" is probably a useful exercise.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 24 May 2012 04:41:31AM 4 points [-]

OK... what would you replace "I" with, then?