Psychohistorian comments on Instrumental vs. Epistemic -- A Bardic Perspective - Less Wrong

66 Post author: MBlume 25 April 2009 07:41AM

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Comment author: pjeby 25 April 2009 10:09:26PM 7 points [-]

However, I think socially manipulative behavior is especially repulsive in dating/romantic relationships and between (ostensible) friends, because these are supposed to be paradigmatic cases of personal closeness and genuine affection. The closeness and affection seem to me much less than genuine if they're wrapped up in layers of showmanship.

When my wife is upset, she likes me to hug her and tell her that things are going to be okay. Am I being a showman if I do that, regardless of how I actually feel in that moment?

If she's in a funk, and I say something funny or tease her to make her smile, am I being manipulative?

If I go shopping with her, even though I'm not interested in shopping, but because I know if I'm there and I smile and ask questions and be helpful, she'll be happier, does that make me dishonest?

And if, the first four or five times I did these things, I felt awkward and fake because it "wasn't really me", does that make me an evil person?

Comment author: Psychohistorian 27 April 2009 11:26:55PM *  6 points [-]

All of these hypotheticals have the common thread of having her best interests at heart.

The objection Alicorn is making to the seduction community is that much of their technique is both dishonest and against the interests of the target. The goal is to get a woman really interested, sleep with her, then move on to the next woman, even knowing that this has a good chance of causing net suffering on the women involved. At least, that's what I understand her objection to be, and it's something I would also object to.

A comparable (though still imperfect) hypothetical would be that you go shopping with your wife because you know it will make her feel obligated to agree when you propose something that she really doesn't agree with and that imposes substantial cost or sacrifice on her. You're manipulating her with the principle goal of advancing your own interests at her expense. Having a moral objection to this seems quite understandable.

On the other hand, using techniques that have proven effective because it makes you better at breaking the ice, when you have reasonably good intentions, seems morally quite justifiable.