Eugine_Nier comments on [Link] Reason: the God that fails, but we keep socially promoting…. - Less Wrong

17 [deleted] 30 May 2012 10:59AM

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Comment author: Multiheaded 31 May 2012 11:00:59AM *  5 points [-]

I mostly agree, that's all good and well... until it comes to moral choices, especially big ones. Here, even if people are very biased, don't know their own preferences, just plain don't care about others, etc... shallow conformism is still a worse option in many situations. If everyone just looked to their current group's authorities in deciding how or whether to do the right thing - and those authorities looked to the past - ... wouldn't we have, for example, 0% of Germans resisting the Holocaust instead of 2%? Wouldn't slavery be a respected institution to this day, lazily "justified" by things like genetic differences? Wouldn't, say, husbands be allowed by law and public opinion to beat, rape and essentially own their wives?

No, no, "conservative"/"traditionalist" ethics are a path to nowhere without a complex semi-conscious system, varying from individual to individual and acting on both rational and emotional levels, that would allow one to relate one's personality and preferences with their group's tradition and accumulated knowledge/heuristics, and which would be given priority during judgment-making by an appeal to a higher, ideal authority - in short, without an essentially religious worldview.[1]

Unfortunately, not everyone has it in them to be Oskar Schindler or Sophie Scholl, but many people only had to be "good Christians" when the moment of truth came - to follow the output of that deep and broad system, which had been known as "Christianity", "Western values", "common decency", but which ultimately drew upon similar sources, and had the ethical advice of centuries encapsuled within it. Alas, it was the 20th century, and things like that - old, complicated, below-the-surface systems - were just falling apart everywhere. But we shouldn't just sit back and allow our own system to follow this course.

This is why I'm against any "rational" tampering with today's mainstream Western worldview, even where I'm to the left or to the right of its political aspects. Any attack on "Liberal hypocrisy" that has indeed taken root in the last 50 years and largely replaced Christianity is short-sighted simply because this system is likely the only thing really holding our civilization together. If anything, perhaps we should move towards giving it more religious trappings - official commandments, saints, etc - without necessarily adding any supernatural element, but certainly without naively preaching that e.g. "Human Rights" don't make much sense.

Today, a thinking conservative should be focused on improving and stabilizing the prevailing liberal dogma, not trying to return to the failed Protestant/Catholic one or make a "dogma-free" system. In short, I'm for free individual search through the collected conscious and subconscious ideas of your culture - its narrative. And where you've got a narrative, you've got humans' natural ability to work with stories; abstract ideas are counter-intuitive, but picking out, combining and adapting stories is, IMO, how we can best handle social thinking.

(Sorry for such a rambling comment, I was just prompted to unload some under-construction ideas by seeing a post that's related to them. Paragraphs here can be read separately.)

[1] I'm not talking about any kind of "faith" here, a belief in the suprenatural and so forth, but about the style of thinking that organized religion or advanced ideology seems to foster in developed, all-around intelligent people - like Chesterton or Orwell. My argument is that the average human also benefits from such a system, and this would be more noticeable with better systems. (Compare the Socialism/Communism of the students and professors who were behind the dismantling of the Segregation in the U.S. - mostly good people, for all their flaws and possible delusions - with e.g. the primitive, simplified worldview of early Bolsheviks. Both are clearly religions, but one does its adherents more good than the other.)

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 01 June 2012 02:43:03AM 2 points [-]

This is why I'm against any "rational" tampering with today's mainstream Western worldview, even where I'm to the left or to the right of its political aspects.

This is an interesting sentence especially in a comment that started out discussing how bad conformism on moral issues is.

Comment author: Multiheaded 01 June 2012 05:02:58AM *  0 points [-]

I'm basically speaking against "shallow" (bad) conformism and for "religious" (good) conformism in this comment. Only emulating the here-and-now surface patterns of your group = bad. Taking care to choose among your culture's traditions carefully, taking a sprout and nurturing it if there's no grown branch (like the more succesful attempts at democracy in Africa, which clearly did NOT come from a mere copy-paste of the Western model, but partly drew on colonial or tribal past), perhaps promoting one branch (say, American Protestant radicalism) at the expense of other (say, Southern slavery and its mode of life) but not cutting any memories and ideas off = good.

Were you aware that even the Bolsheviks in Russia were following an established tradition of "nihilism" and radical upheaval? Their fault was not steering the nation in a direction they wanted, but (nearly) pruning all the other branches of possibilities inherent in the Russian culture, from monarchism to tribal/feudal democracy. Today in the US, slavery might be gone but the positive image of the "Southern Gentlemen", with its associated aristocratic values, lives on in vestigal form (and has plenty of fans), while the memory of Russian aristocracy is sadly gone.

That's roughly the difference I'm talking about, between treating the culture as an unique living thing vs. as a generic simple machine.

(And yet still somehow I don't call myself a conservative. Don't ask.)

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 01 June 2012 06:09:53AM *  2 points [-]

(like the more succesful attempts at democracy in Africa, which clearly did NOT come from a mere copy-paste of the Western model, but partly drew on colonial or tribal past)

Perhaps, but the linked articles don't go into enough detail to support this assertion.

perhaps promoting one branch (say, American Protestant radicalism) at the expense of other (say, Southern slavery and its mode of life) but not cutting any memories and ideas off = good.

I would like to point out that decentralized systems, e.g., libertarianism, are better at this then centralized systems, e.g., socialism.