Viliam_Bur comments on The Power of Reinforcement - Less Wrong

96 Post author: lukeprog 21 June 2012 01:42PM

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Comment author: Viliam_Bur 22 June 2012 11:06:49AM *  5 points [-]

I do accept this kind of reinforcement from my significant other, assuming that:

  • it is for a goal I agree with (extrapolated volition)
  • I am free to say "stop doing this" if I don't feel like to be reinforced; and my wish is respected
  • I do get the same signs of affection in other situations too.

Actually I consider it very useful, and for me it would be a waste not to use this kind of cheap "external willpower". YMMV.

Comment author: wedrifid 22 June 2012 11:24:58AM 1 point [-]

I do accept this kind of reinforcement from my significant other, assuming that:

Note that I consider the reinforcement you are describing to be entirely different in kind (not "this kind"). The boundaries around the kind I accept are approximately the same as yours:

  • it is for a goal I agree with (extrapolated volition)
  • I am free to say "stop doing this" if I don't feel like to be reinforced; and my wish is respected
  • I do get the same signs of affection in other situations too.

I go by what my intuition tells me but when formalizing those intuitions something similar is generated.

Actually I consider it very useful, and for me it would be a waste not to use this kind of cheap "external willpower".

I make a point of rewarding desired reinforcement (while attempting 'extinction' on less desirable influence tactics like nagging or punishment.)

Comment author: [deleted] 24 June 2012 06:31:43PM *  0 points [-]

The boundaries around the kind I accept are approximately the same as yours:

it is for a goal I agree with (extrapolated volition)

I supposed the reason why the husband in the story didn't put his clothes in the hamper was that he was too lazy to do that, not that he (terminally) valued that the clothes stayed outside the hamper.

Comment author: wedrifid 25 June 2012 06:49:54AM 0 points [-]

I supposed the reason why the husband in the story didn't put his clothes in the hamper was that he was too lazy to do that, not that he (terminally) valued that the clothes stayed outside the hamper.

Having a terminal value for clothes outside the hamper isn't the point. It is whether given the negotiated relationship boundaries and typical behaviors as they currently are the person being modified would prefer "status quo except I do <influenced behavior> more" over "status quo".

"Too lazy" can be left out of such considerations. That doesn't distinguish between akrasia and considered intent not to do the thing (for whatever reason). For most part judgements like "too lazy" are just another method of attempting influence - usually a method that is inferior to reinforcement.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 25 June 2012 01:58:40PM 1 point [-]

For most part judgements like "too lazy" are just another method of attempting influence - usually a method that is inferior to reinforcement.

Well, making judgments like "too lazy" can also provide valuable social cover for other kinds of reinforcement (or punishment), within communities where deliberately altering the behavior of others is seen as unacceptable unless I can frame it as being for their benefit.

More generally, motivated speculation about other people's best interests (including but not limited to positing that they possess unexpressed "terminal values" that happen to align better with what I seem to want than with what they seem to want) can be a very useful way to ignore people's stated preferences without feeling (or being seen by third parties as) indebted to them.

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